TRANSCRIPT
INTERVIEWEE: Hana Ginzbarg (HG)
INTERVIEWERS: David Todd (DT) and David Radcliffe (DR)
DATE OF INTERVIEW: January 22, 1997
LOCATION: Bellaire, Texas
NUMBER OF TAPES: three
REEL: Unnumbered (audio record only)

DT: Today is January 22nd, and David Todd and David Radcliffe are interviewing Hana Ginzbarg about her personal history and some of her many contributions to the environmental field in Houston and southeast Texas, and we’re gonna begin with some questions about her background in education. For instance, where and when were you born?
HG: O.K., I was born in Prague, Czechoslovakia, then Czechoslovakia, on June 1, 1925. I have a brother who’s two years younger. My father was an attorney, in Prague, and I went to elementary school and then I started high school. And when I was 13, I went to England because the Nazis invaded Czechoslovakia. And, my mother had a friend who was a British journalist, and he found out that a group of Quakers was coming to Czechoslovakia to take children out of the country, take Jewish children to England. And so my mother took my brother and I–my brother was 11 and–she took us to the train station and put us on the train. And, fortunately, the train was full the first time but we–you know, we came back the next day–two days later and–we were on the next transport–the last transport to England. And then–I’m being very brief about it–I went to high school in England. We had–my mother finally was able to join us, because for two weeks England and France allowed refugees to come without a visa, and my father couldn’t get out. My father died in Czechoslovakia. But I was with some family. We were in–my brother and I were in foster homes because my mother couldn’t take care of us at that time, and we–I was in Newcastle but the school was evacuated to Cheswick, and so I went to high school in England, High–I mean, high school in–central Newcastle High school. And then in 1943, we got a Visa to come to the United States, and–I went to Vassar College and got a B.A. in 1945, and then I went to Smith College and got a Master’s Degree in Chemistry. And then I went to Purdue and was working on my Ph.D., and met my husband there, and I got married, came to Houston in 1949, and have lived here ever since. So much for education.
DT: Well, a good summary. Thanks very much.
HG: And then I worked. I worked at M.D. Anderson for a while and I worked–and I taught Chemistry in high school, Kinkaid and Duschene’s and–St. John’s.
DT: Well, did you find, at DuSchen, then–and at St. John’s, that the students shared some of your interests about the environment?
HG: Well, I tell you, just about that time I read Rachel Carson’s. And I was very much turned on, and I shared my ideas, plus I got involved with the Bayou Preservation Association and met Terry Hershey. And so I got more and more involved in the environmental Movement, yes, and I did discuss things with my students. In fact, they helped with one of my projects.
DT: Well, did you also find that–that some of your colleagues at M.D. Anderson were interested in some of these same environmental issues, and in public health and the environment?
HG: Not–that was before I read Rachel Carson’s. I wasn’t really into environment at that time. But I can–you had–one question is how did I become interested in environment? And one of the things was that having grown up in Czechoslovakia we–we spent all our weekends and summer vacations in the mountains, hiking.
DT: I see.
HG: And so there was no place to hike here. The only place to hike was along the Bayous. And so first we lived–and when we first came here we lived in an apartment–a town and country apartment on MacGregor Way?
DT: Right.
HG: And–it’s gone now but–anyway, so we walked along Brays Bayou and then suddenly the trees have been bulldozed down and everything. The Corps of Engineers was rectifying the Bayou. So we looked for another place and we found Buffalo Bayou and we walked along the Bayou, you know, just off the trail down–up and down the ravines and the–the hills. And when Stephen was born, that–it was such an underprivileged child, he doesn’t have any hills to climb.
DT: Um-hmm.
HG: So we would take him down to the Bayou and let him climb up and down the hills, you know. And then one day I saw on television that the Corps of Engineers was going to rectify Buffalo Bayou, and Terry–she was there objecting. So I called her, and said, “What can I do to help?” And I joined the fight.
DT: Always a dangerous thing to say.
HG: I know, and I joined the Bayou Preservation Association. And I went to Memorial Park every weekend and got signatures and I got about 2,000 signatures of people for–objecting to the rectifying of the Bayou. So I gave that to the Bayou Preservation Association. But anyway–so that got me involved in all kinds of things at–working with the floodplain–well, that–you know, getting–trying to get control over development in the floodplains to prevent flooding and–and–that’s the whole series of change on that side.
DT: Well–well, tell me, when–when you were collecting these signatures at Memorial Park, about the channelization of Buffalo Bayou. What was it that was the most successful sort of spiel? Was it that this is an aesthetic problem or that it’s a habitat problem or that it’s a waste of tax payers’ money? Well, what pumped up the older people?
HG: It–for me it was–O.K., at the time for me it was an aesthetic problem. That was my–my thing, you know?
DT: Right.
HG: Later on when I learned more about it, I would see it as a economic problem and an ecological problem.
DT: What …
HG: You know? I mean, devastation of the environment essentially, and wasting of taxpayer’s money. But, you had a question in there, who were the people that most influenced my life?
DT: Yeah.
HG: Mateher–she was one of them. And–of course my husband and my mother, and I can talk about that later. But, Yrmanetegui was campaigning against the Texas Water Plan. Remember the Texas Water Plan?
DT: Yes. Which–which edition?
HG: Three point–which edition? The first one, in 19 …
DT: Oh.
HG: –let’s see. Nineteen sixty-nine. And this was a 3.5-billion-dollar project to take Mississippi water to west Texas. Remember that?
DT: Yes. Texas-sized project.
HG: Yes, O.K. So I–altogether it was gonna cost about $20 billion. Did I say million? I mean billion, O.K.? Anyway, so I wrote–I read a lot about it and I wrote articles about floodplain management and–and there was a book out at–“Water Or Your Life” by Arthur Carhart? It was very interesting. It showed that–that we develop–in dry periods–in periods of drought we develop the wetlands because they’re dry, and in periods of flood we developed the dry lands because they’re wet, and then when the weather’s changed it causes problems and then the United States has to bail people out, you know, and all that.
DT: [Laughs.]
HG: So I wrote an article about that for the Sierra–I think for the Sierra or for the Audubon. Anyway, coming back to our walks along the Bayou, Don Newman with the Soil Conservation Service asked me to take pictures along the Bayou. And we walked not only in Memorial Park but, you know, we got–we–we knew Memorial Park in and out so we started to walk down Buffalo Bayou–or up Buffalo Bayou along–between Voss and Stoney–and Piney Point and Voss.
DT: Right.
HG: You know, it was a big chunk of land. And one day we were walking over there–I was there taking pictures and everything–and there was just devastation. I mean, just–mountains and mountains of dirt and the whole thing was bulldozed and you couldn’t see anything from the street–you know, it was all in the woods. So I went to investigate, find out who owned the property and what they were doing and everything else, and found out that the county–and this was a big thing–county was building a road–what I call road to nowhere. I took all that to the papers and there was a series of articles. There was a bend along Bayou, it’s–you know?
DT: When was this?
HG: Nineteen seventy.
DT: Yeah.
HG: O.K. There was a–there was a bend on the Bayou at Voss and San Felipe at–near Memorial–you know, crossing the Bayou, there was this bend. Well, this was all low lands, between the bends, and the county wanted to build a road and Piney Point didn’t want the road, and so they–it–it was expensive to build a road over the–all this wetland. And so they decided to build a new channel, take the dirt and fill in the wetlands, and the owner of that was–Handly was his name. He owned all that property and he allowed them to put their–dump–dump the dirt–this was from the channel–on their land, which means that they filled their land and now he had free land …
DT: Um-hmm.
HG: –that he got for building–and all those offices that are there now, you know?
DT: Oh.
HG: They’re all sitting on that–what used to be wetland. So when–I mean, all this–you know, I–I took this for–sent of the paper and then I took it to the Grand Jury, and the developer was indicted. And Judge Elliott–not Judge Elliott. I mean, there was a Commissioner Elliott–there are two Elliots–there’s a Commissioner Elliott. And he lost an election because of that ’cause he was involved in the deal. But the indictment–he was never prosecuted so nothing ever happened after that. But anyway, it was this–but in the process–O.K., what is my story? I lost the trend. O.K., the trend was that this was one thing that happened–that happened, and I did that all in 1970 and it happened because Don wanted me to take pictures of the Bayou. The other thing that happened is that the land between–further–further west from that road to nowhere, it was beautiful land, and out in the woods. And so, having worked with Armand Yrmantegui on the Texas Water Plan, I called him one day and I said, “You Know, that land is so gorgeous, we should make a park out of that.” And he was Mr. Conservationist, you know, he was like Terry Hershey, he knew how to do things–and I called him. If you wanted a park there, what should you do? And he says, “Well, next week is budget hearings at City Hall.” Said, “Why don’t you go down to City Hall to testify at the budget hearings, and ask them to make a park? You know, have a million-dollar bond election and buy the property for a park.” So I have never been to City Hall, I’ve never done this, and I said, “Well, I’ll write something down and I’ll call you to see if that’s O.K.” So I called him, and he said, “Yeah, I’ll see you tomorrow.” And then when I was getting ready to go to the city hall, I heard on the news that he was killed. So I went to the city hall anyway, and instead of talking about–well, I talked about that but I mean–I was there and some other people were there and we talked about Armand Yrmanetegui memorial and so on. And so that–that same night was an Audubon Society meeting and Armand was President of the Audubon Society. So I mentioned the fact that I went to the city hall and somebody said, “Well, Armand was planning to go to the county budget hearing the next day.” And I said, “Would anybody like to go on his behalf,” so I said, “O.K., I’ll go.” And so, the–what he was trying to do at the county meeting was to ask the county to set up a Parks and Recreation Department and get a Parks and Recreation director, which is a very important thing, as we’ll see in the–in the future. But–for Armand Bayou. But anyway–so I did that. I went down, and Frank O’Kesh was at the meeting and he said, “I’ll go down, too, and I’ll talk about his interest in Middle Bayou.” So Frank O’Kesh made a little speech about how Armand thought that this was the best-preserved piece of wilderness in Harris County, and he had a tape recorder and transcribed his speech. So I got the–got the tape from him and I typed it up, and I thought that was a wonderful thing to make a memorial for Armand at this–Middle Bayou. And so at the funeral for Armand, I handed out copies of that to everybody. [Laughs.]
DT: Yeah.
HG: And, anyway, so this is how I got involved with Armand, by that introduction to that.
DT: Well, do you think that–that the preservation involvement by the Nature Center was, first and foremost, sort of a sentimental memorial for Armand or did–there was recognition that this was essential? How did that force …
HG: Well, this is what you–O.K., what Frank said, that this was the best-preserved piece of wilderness and–and Armand Yrmanetegui wanted to have–see it preserved. O.K. So, I mean–now I’m talking about myself, O.K.? What …
DT: Right.
HG: –what my reaction was.
DT: Yeah, I was thinking of the reaction from the Harris County Commissioners, and …
HG: Well, …
DT: –Pasadena.
HG: O.K. It’s a long story, O.K.? It doesn’t–doesn’t happen like the–it didn’t happen like that. There was no–you know, I know you want me to say that everybody was enthusiastic about–it didn’t happen that way. O.K.? What happened was that–and you’ll see when you read the notes that it didn’t happen that way. What happened was–what I’d–first of all, let me back up and say something that I wanted to say. The projects that I get involved in don’t happen by planning. They just happen by serendipity, see? I mean, what happened here was just an accident, it always is an accident. And, I–so, what I–another way I look at it is it’s like evolution. It’s a matter of chance events, plus natural selection–a combination of the two. So–anyway, so the chance event was, it–you know, it started with our walks and seeing Terry and getting the pictures and–and that road to nowhere was an important lead into Armand Bayou for me because I did all this publicity–I mean, I gave all these stories to Harold Scarlet at The Houston Post and he wrote a series. I mean, every day there was an article on–on the road to nowhere. So when I needed publicity for Armand Bayou he was my friend, and that helped with Armand Bayou. I …
DT: Well, tell me, do you think that the media’s been helpful to you?
HG: Well, they–Harold Scarlet was extremely helpful. Yes, and–and O.K., well, I–you’re getting ahead of the story, O.K.? I’ll–I’ll get to that …
DT: Well, I don’t want to forget some of these sort of tangents and …
HG: The media–let’s start–let me write that down. Yeah, media is very important, and I’ll talk about that in a minute.
DT: Thank you.
HG: O.K., what I wanted to do is–let’s see, what was this, and what were we talking about, just before? You asked me a question, whether everybody was all excited about observing the *** …
DT: Sure. The reaction to the information was …
HG: O.K. So–no, what happened is that–in March, a friend of mine–we bought a canoe–used Girl Scout canoe, because we liked to–we used to canoe on–in Austin on–Lake Austin as a kind of a side land and–I’ve forgotten what it’s called. But anyway, we rented canoes there, and …
DT: Barton Creek perhaps.
HG: No, not Barton Creek. It’s–it’s a tributary of Lake Austin. You go up a little river and come down to Lake Austin. Anyway–so a friend of ours–well, we bought the used canoe, and then I wanted to go–have a place to go canoeing and so this friend was going to Armand Bayou, or Middle Bayou, and invited me to go on motor boats. You know, they knew I was interested in it. And it was in March, and it was–Armand died in–in January so this was in March and it was so beautiful. It was a beautiful day, and I’ve never really been out on a natural river like that, you know, with the Spanish moss hanging down and–and birds, and it was just–you know, no sign of civilization anywhere, just–just wilderness. And so I thought, yeah, this has to go. You know, it has to be–we had already talked about it and we–you know, for me it was just a theoretical thing and now it was something emotional for me. And–but still I was busy with the road to nowhere and–and then I–something else. There was the 1899 Refuse Act, do you know about that?
DT: No.
HG: Dumping …
[TRANSCRIBER’S NOTE: DR = David Radcliffe, other interviewer.]
DR: The year 1899? The–for …
HG: Nineteen–1899, …
DR: Right.
HG: –1899 Refuse Act. That it’s illegal to dump whatever–whatever–what it is into navigable waters and Buffalo Bayou was a navigable waterway, and we found out that there was a–a developer was dumping–not only this was a dumping–you know, we–I tried to get a lawsuit going on the dumping–on this rechannelization on the basis that they’re dumping into a navigable stream but it didn’t go. Anyway, the other case was that a developer was dumping into a place at Glenway, and the dumping of the dirt into–on his side made a bayou move, and it took away land on the opposite side of the Bayou. And the land across the Bayou belonged to Pete’s Lumbers–yeah, and so, I collected all the evidence and presented it to him and he filed a lawsuit and he got $50,000 claimed from the damages to that.
DT: [Laughs.]
HG: I got nothing but–anyway, he was gonna support my causes after that but didn’t. Anyway, so that was the–what–I was busy in 1970. O.K., in November, 1970, Frank O’Kesh called and he says, “Well, we ought to do something about Armand Bayou.” He’s gonna name it. And he called Friendswood Development Company, he called Victor Emanuel, he called Pasadena public officials, to come to a ceremony at the Bayou to name the Bayou. And Victor Emanuel was chairing the–that event, that meeting, and talked about Armand Yrmanetegui and how nice the Bayou is and then he went and asked the–the vice president of Friendswood Development Company, which is a subsidiary of Exxon, was Humble Oil at that time–and asked him what the plans are for the–for this area because Friendswood Development owned all the land on the Bayou. And he said, “Well, what kind of–well, you know, we’re planning to develop it.” And he says, “Could we see your plans?” And he says, “Well, they’re not ready yet, you know,” yeah and–you know, later on and so on and so forth. So, I called Pasadena Planning Department and asked ’em if they had–oh, I have to back up for a minute, O.K.? Another serendipity idea was that in 1964, Pasadena annexed a strip along Middle Bayou all the way to Clear Lake as an annexation strip to prevent Houston from surrounding Pasadena. And so they had–because they owned a thousand-foot strip along the Bayou, they had extraterritorial rights, whatever you call it, and they could control that development on the outside of that. So, before Friendswood could develop anything they had to submit–apply to the Planning and Zoning in Pasadena. So I called the Planning Director of Pasadena. I said, “Do you have a plan submitted by Friendswood?” And he says yes. “Can I have a copy?” “Yes.” So I went and–went and got the copy. And it was awful. I mean, it had–every inch was development and there were streets all the way down to the Bayou. I mean, everything was developed. So–O.K. I was interested in floodplain management, I was interested in federal insurance administration. This is what Bayou Preservation was working on, the League of Women Voters was working on, Terry Hershey was working on–is to try to prevent development in flood-prone areas. And the Federal Insurance Administration was newly organized, and people there didn’t know much about it yet. But Pasadena has flooding in the city, and you cannot–a city cannot qualify for flood insurance unless they have a floodplain management plan, where they control development in–within the 50- and the hundred-year floodplain. So, I went to Pasadena, and–let’s see, and the–Friendswood was building right into the floodplain, the hundred-year floodplain. So we talked of Pasadena and went to the Planning and Zoning Commission meeting, and talked to them about–“Wouldn’t you like to have flood insurance, and this is how you get it,” and so on, so they investigated. AT the same time, Clear Lake City Water Authority had control over the Bayou, and the–they had also rights to control development, and they were trying to get people–they were interested in it the–from the other point of view. They wanted people to be able to build houses in the floodplain, and they wanted them to be able to get insurance. And so they applied for the flood insurance, and one of the criteria–one of the requirements–before you can get flood insurance, you have to have the Corps of Engineers draw up maps for the floodplain, and they had already requested the maps from the Corps of Engineers. So when I found out about it, I called the Corps of Engineers and asked them if I could have copies of the maps. Says, “Well, they’re not ready yet,” you know, and, “Could I have preliminary copies,” so they sent me the preliminary copies. And on those maps there was a little footnote. And it says, “Warning,” you know, that these maps–that “the designation of the floodplain may not be accurate because of subsidence that has taken place since we”–this is on–was done on a 1955 contour map. And the land had subsided since, so the contours are no longer at the elevation that they think they are, and therefore, you know, we need to–all right. So Friendswood is building in the floodplain and the floodplain is really bigger than they think it is. So, these maps–you know, we told Pasadena about the fact that the–Clear Lake, you know, had already the maps–they got the maps and they got their flood insurance and they passed the ordinances to–the Flood Control Ordinances, the–the Floodplain Management Ordinances. But the ordinances are–restricted development to the–the hundred-year flood level was–was defined as 15 feet and the–50-year flood level was 13 feet, and you couldn’t build anything within the–I mean, let’s see. Within the 50-year–within the hundred-year flood level, which is at 13 feet, you couldn’t build anything. At the 50–your slabs had to be above the 15-foot, which was–above the 50-year flood level, which was 15 feet.
DT: Um-hmm.
HG: So you have to have your slab at 15 feet and you can’t do anything below 13 feet. And so Friendswood, which had already submitted the plans, had to change the plans because they were building down to 12 feet or something, you know, and were putting slabs at 13 feet instead of 15 feet, even though what is 15 feet was really 13 feet now, you know, because of subsidence. So anyway–so that delayed it and Friendswood had to redo their plans and everything else. And–you–this is exactly what we wanted, because what we were asking Friendswood to do–since you cannot build on this land because it’s in the floodplain, why don’t you donate it for a green belt? And we met with Friendswood, and they would not donate it. They said that they would, you know, “Wait till we see our plans,” and they would make a green belt of their own. So, in effect they did but they didn’t. They called–they had 800–what did I say? Eight hundred square feet, at the time.
DT: Eight hundred acres?
HG: Eight hundred acres. Eight hundred acres, which was supposed to be green belt, but it was to be just not undeveloped land for the subdivision. Well, it might’ve had tennis courts on it or some kind of recreational facility, for the subdivision. It wasn’t public land and it wasn’t in a natural state. It could–it was recreational land essentially, just undeveloped land. And also they were–their–we were asking for the restrictions to not subdivide it at all, but they were subdivided so the owners really–you–owned it, could own it down to the Bayou. Anyway, it was better than nothing but it wasn’t exactly what we wanted. So, in the meantime, we wrote–I wrote to the U.S.–to the Corps of Engineers, and–asking them to get a new study done, to–re–re-leveling–the technical term is re-leveling the–setting the elevations, and we wrote to the U.S.G.S., and we wrote to the Federal Insurance Administration. And finally the Federal Insurance Administration decided, yes, this is a bad situation, because we’re going to be allowing development in flood-prone area because of the subsidence and we need new maps. So, they asked the Corps of Engineers to do new maps. The Corps of Engineers asked the U.S.G.S. to do new maps and the U.S.G.S. didn’t have the money to do it. So it was gonna be $200,000. So, Frank O’Kesh, who was the guy originally who talked about Armand Bayou at the Corps–he was a member of the American Association of Civil Engineers, and they agreed to raise $100,000 for the study, and they did. That, plus the Chamber of Commerce contributed, so they finally got the new study made. So in the meantime, this was–while this was all going on, we talked of our city never preserving this land and of, you know, needing to make a park out of the green belt and get Exxon to donate it and all that. But, there was no money for it, so there was a story–in May of 1971, there was a story in the paper about HUD’s Legacy of Parks program, where they would–for open space, urban open space. And they offered 75%–they had 75% grant–matching grant–I mean, the local community 25%, HUD 75%. So I called them right away when–as soon as I heard about it and I invited the HUD people and they came down and we had the Texas Parks and Wildlife take them on a boat trip on Armand Bayou–a motor boat–and show them around in the area–it was wonderful. I mean, they just loved it. They went down and there was a–a tree with a rope on it hanging over the water and there were some kids swinging from the rope, and I said, “This is Tom Sawyer world,” you know.
DT: [Laughs.]
HG: And they just wanted to make a park out of–they loved it. So we made an appointment for them to visit with the Mayor of Pasadena, and they said, “Fine, you know. I mean, how can I refuse 75% matching money?” And so, this went on for a long time but still, you know. So they says, “O.K., we’ll apply for the money,” and they applied for the grant. And then what happened is that the program was authorized by Congress but it wasn’t–the money was not appropriated. And finally when it got to be appropriated they cut it, and so they had to cut the program and they cut it to 50% instead of 75%. So–O.K., that means that what–we were talking about buying 800 acres and so that would cost $2 million, and the–and Pasadena would have to come up with $1 million. And there was no chance of having a bond election to raise $1 million. The public would not–you asked me the question–the public would not go for it. So the–the Mayor appointed a bunch of bankers–first of all–I’m simplifying this, you know, there’s lots more to it than that. People in Pasadena really didn’t know anything about–I didn’t–could care less and whatever, and one day I was talking to a–on Earth Day I went to give a–we developed a slide presentation and Robert Vines–you know who he is.
DT: Yes.
HG: Robert Vines gave the–narrated the slides, and then I took him all over the place to show them. And on Earth Day I was invited to go to San Jacinto College to show the slides, and there was two women from Pasadena from the League of Women Voters. And they–you know, they were very impressed and I got to know them and so then, we talked about–they invited me to Pasadena, and I showed the slides in Pasadena and Reverend Skiles was there and he was so–you know, he thought it was wonderful and we need to do this. And so he went before the Council, and he got the city all, you know, involved and–“You don’t care about this and the children,” you know, blah blah blah. And so they appointed him as chairman of the “Save Armand Bayou” committee. It’s all in my notes. They appointed Reverend Ben Skiles chairman of the “Save Armand Bayou” Committee. And they asked–invited mayors of other communities to be on the committee and the task was to find a way to get the money and make the park. And they had bankers on the committee, and the bankers–and I’m simply finding this, too, it–what happened later. But the bankers got–sold Certificates of Obligation, which is–I don’t quite understand the technicalities of that but it’s something like bonds, but you don’t have to have an election. So they can lend the money to the city without knowing–an official bond because they didn’t think a bond would pass. So anyway–so we got that done and everything and–and we got the grant and had–came up with the money and Pasadena bought the 800 acres, you know. I mean, it took a year but got done. But, that was not enough.
DR: O.K., ‘scuse me. Was this 1971 when she went to the–with the slide show or was that later on?
HG: This–yeah, we were doing the slide show already in ’70, …
DR: Seventy?
HG: –and in–well, ’71 we got the–the floodplain management …
DR: Right.
HG: –endorsed, and–February 11, 1971 with the floodplain management. And–oh, the ordinances? Well, March 9th ordinances–one was applied against owning. And, in–on April 2nd, we met with Friendswood and they presented us with the plans that–what I was talking about, you know. That was 1971, April 2nd. And then, the story about HUD appeared on–in May, 1971, the Legacy of Parks story. And, then right after that the HUD officials came. The program was cut in February, and …
DR: Seventy-two?
HG: February of ’72.
DR: Yeah.
HG: And–Pasadena got the grant, that–the dedication ceremony was in–the grant was announced in July of ’72.
DR: Yeah.
HG: O.K., but–that was the year something had happened. In–[pause]–just a minute. In May of ’72, Department of Interior …
[Tape 1, Side B.]
HG: … In May of ’72, Department of Interior had a conference. The Bureau of *** invited me to speak at a conference in–in Dallas. And so I went there and–I went to see the HUD people. While I was in Dallas I went–dropped in to the HUD people and I said, “Well, we thank you.” They were already–you know, the grant was already in the works. So I–we knew we were gonna get it. So I said, “Well, you know, this is really not enough. The 800 acres is not enough, we need more land. And so, would you–we’re gonna raise money from private sources because that’s all that Pasadena can do–the $1 million. And, then when we have enough, we’ll come back to you and ask for matching money.” And, the HUD people said, “Oh.”
DT: Oh, the lawsuit. Right.
HG: HUD people said, “Oh, don’t wait. Apply right away because our program is going to terminate in December of ’72. That’s the end of the program, so get your application in right away so we can start processing it while you’re raising money.” So I went back to Pasadena sure–and they applied–you know, that by that time they were all turned on. So they applied for the–the second grant, and we were raising the money. And–now this is a little bit–show you how this works. We divided the whole area into plots, and–the first part that Pasadena bought was just the low part along the Bayou.
DT: This would be two, three, eight …
HG: One, two, three, four, five, six–you have that in your packet. What–this was what Pasadena already got, or was getting, that first grant. The second grant, we wanted to get–this strike. This is the high land where the Nature Center’s sitting, where you were this morning–this is where the seven is. And this was four hundred and–well–actually we wanted this. We wanted all of this, 486 acres. And we were gonna apply for that and that was another million dollars. Well, as it turned out, at the time that the program terminated, we had–we only had $350,000, so they could only match what we had. So–but that’s all we got. We didn’t get–we–you know, we wanted 500,000, we didn’t get that. So we had to scale this down. So instead of doing all of this, we divided that and we just got the two hundred and–we were just gonna get the 225,000. O.K. Now there was a complication, because you had to get the land appraised, and we were holding off–we didn’t want it appraised until we had the new maps, because the price–the land would be less if it is in the floodplain and lower. So we got–we waited and we got the new maps and we had it appraised and it was something like $3,500 an acre, and so that’s what the grant was for. And, when it came to buying this property, everything was set and this was in 1972–Friendswood said, “Well, we’re not gonna sell it. We’re not gonna sell–we–we agreed to sell the whole thing, we’re not gonna sell part of it, because you want our best land. And if we buy this–if you buy the high land we can’t develop the low land, so you have to take–well, everything or nothing.” Moreover, they said that, “Before you can buy this, we really want you to”–said, “Buy this.” This was lower, and inaccessible. You know, this is NASA’s here, and there’s no road to it and anything. So, “First buy this, and then we’ll sell you this.” So, O.K., that–there’s more complications than that. So, the county–there was an election for a new commissioner in ’72, let’s see. And the new–and let’s–no. [Pause.] Let’s see. Yeah, it must be ’73. In ’72 there was an election, in ’73 a new commissioner’s court came in. And the–the new court–the county–the–by that time–let’s see, I have to back up a little bit because there’re too many missing pieces. Do you want to ask me something first that I didn’t answer?
DT: Well, I could.
HG: No, I mean–no, it’s O.K., I mean, am I talking too much?
DT: No, you’re doing a superb job.
DR: No, no.
HG: All right, O.K.
DT: This is perfect.
HG: All right, fine. Plus–so, O.K., let me back up. This year, 1971, we had the idea of–how to get the park was to get the public behind it–you know, to generate interest because when I went to speak to Clear Lake Forest, people said, “What do you want to save this for, it’s a mosquito-ridden swamp,” you know. And we don’t have murders back there in the woods and–said, “We’re gonna have mosquitoes,” and I said, “What do you have now?” You know. [Laughs.]
DT: [Laughs.]
HG: So–so we had the slide show and we showed the slides and the slides were gorgeous, and he–environmental, ecological, you know, and Mr. Vines talked about the wonderful things happening there and all the creatures and–it was beautiful slides. Anyway, the second thing we did is that we got permission from Friendswood to have a hike. They gave us permission to have a public hike the first Sunday of every month. And so we advertised it–and you asked me about publicity. We’d had so many stories in the paper. Every excuse we had we had a story in the paper because we were trying to make Armand Bayou like–next to motherhood, you know, so that everybody would want–want it to be preserved. And so, these hikes were publicized and sometimes we had 400 people come for a hike. And, then we had canoe trips, and then we had visitors come, and we had all the political candidates. We had the Governor come for a tour of the Bayou and everything was in–on television and it was–made paper and so–continual story. I mean, every week there was something in the papers about Armand Bayou. Anyway–so that made it very difficult for Friendswood to develop it because of–public sentiment was behind it, you know. And it wasn’t spontaneous. I mean, it became spontaneous and a lot of people–we had Discover Armand Bayou Day and we had the astronauts on the Bayou and we had–ABC television came, and they did something about the Gulf and they came on Armand Bayou and they had the–the astronauts in the–were in the–in the movie for something for–to be on ABC, you know. So, I mean, finally everybody wanted to be in on this. And–and all the organizations–and every organization had their little piece that they were doing. They help eliminate pollution, did something–they had a white elephant sale or–Discover Armand Bayou Day, I think that was theirs. And we invited the old-timers and, you know, Armand stories–there were things going on. And then we had to–then we were–started–no, wait–wait a second. So, when it–let’s see. When it came that Friendswood didn’t sell the property–we had raised money from private sources. Oh, one other thing is–Mary Cravens suggested that I write a letter to Susan McAshan, and ask her for advice. She said, “Don’t ask her for money. Ask her for advice.” So I wrote a nice letter and asked her for advice and, you know, explained to her what the Nature Center is all about, what our ideas are and plans are and everything else. And I got a call–a couple of weeks later I got a call from her that she wants to build an interpretive building at the Bayou.
DT: Nice advice.
HG: Yeah. So that was–you know, thanks to Mary. And so, …
DT: Nature Center was a new idea, yeah.
HG: Well, did you see that she had the McAshan–the Houston Arboretum was already …
DT: Right. Right.
HG: –built, you know, so then–you know, and Mr. Vine–we got Mr. Vine and–something else we did is in drawing up the plans–you see, for Pasadena this is what we did. I have to tell you something else. I didn’t–have never done anything like that. I didn’t used to volunteer because–I mean, I just didn’t have time for it, it wasn’t my thing. The only reason I did this is because it was something that–it had to be, you know? And when I don’t–work on something, I work very hard and I give it every–my all, but it’s only because I believe in it. It’s not just because–you know, I don’t go to the hospital and volunteer, I don’t do things that anybody can do. I just do things because it needs to be done, or it–you know, it’s something. So when Pasadena applied for the grant, I didn’t know how to do that but everybody I talk to, they give me advice. Something–you need letters of support. So this is half of this book. This is for all letters of support. See? This is all–you got all the letters from different organizations. So I went to show them slides, I’ve talked with them, I says, “Would you write us a letter for the book.”
DT: And this includes cities and government agencies?
HG: Cities and–yeah, you handle it through organizations, all kinds of organizations and different communities and–the Clear Lake City Water Authority and–and Congressmen and senators and everybody wrote a letter. [Laughs.] So, this much is the narrative, and the rest of it is the support letters.
DT: Great.
HG: So, anyway, that was Mary Rollins’ suggestion, and–invite your Congressmen and write to them and invite your–the candidates that are running for office, you know, and get them–so, anyway. So–we raised–I mean, we had–O.K., then we’ve started to raise money after we had them–the–you know, pledge from the McAshans, Nina Cullinan invited me to Lucie’s, your mother’s, for–to get–she gave a cocktail party, and we raised–I don’t know, a hundred, $200,000 or something like that. You know, just 50,000 from–the mayors gave 50,000, somebody else–and let’s see, who else? The Brown Foundation gave 50,000. I don’t know, that was not at that event, but, you know, money started to come in. And we raised–as I said, 350–eventually we raised 400 and it was almost 500,000, eventually, but–you know, at the time. Anyway–so, we had all this money–by 1972 we had the money, and Friendswood wouldn’t sell. And it was two years before they would sell. I mean, I–and the reason–there’s a story–I have that story exactly like that. It’s–it’s all in details in the–in your packet. So, we didn’t–we didn’t argue, we didn’t do anything, we just kept on having events and having–we went to plan the park. We had the Audubon Society–Susan McAshan gave $15,000 so we could get the Audubon Society to come and help us plan the park and–in the end we didn’t like their plan. It was–it wasn’t exactly what was appropriate and so on. So we did it but we used a lot of their ideas so it was done in cooperation with–that’s what this is, you know. Preservation of Armand Bayou, Houston Audubon Society and the Planning Division. So a lot of the idea–that was theirs but the–in the end, we–we–we wrote this and that. Bayou Preservation president was George Mitchell. And–but Friendswood–oh, I didn’t say something. When we met with Friendswood to see the plans and asked them to donate the land, they said, “We’d be happy to sell it to you for $6,000 an acre.” And we told George Mitchell that and he almost flipped and says, “Go talk to Jim Veltman,” you know, head planner. And that’s another little story that’s sort of a side light to this is that the board meetings–I always sat next to George Mitchell at the board meetings and I had read Ian McHarg’s “Design With Nature”, and talked about it, and in the end he hired Ian McHarg to do The Woodlands.
DT: Well, …
HG: I don’t know whether I can take credit for it, but I kind of suspect that it was because I planted the seed. Anyway, so Jim Veltman worked with Ian McHarg–for Ian McHarg in designing the woodlands, and George Mitchell says, “Well, let him help you with this.” So the maps in here that you–set Jim up and did that. I mean, he came down and he really helped us with the thing. And I did the book but he showed me how to do the layout and taught me how to make it look nice and–you know, all that, so–it was an education for me. And–and it came out much better than what the Audubon had originally done. And–anyway, so, when Friendswood wouldn’t sell the property, we just didn’t acknowledge that, you know? And we had–we had a group that was doing planning of the park. First we needed a map, a survey. And you can’t do the survey with all the trees, you know, you can’t–and the topo maps were not that accurate. So we had a geologist from the University of Houston, a woman, who came up and had a group. You know, we met–we put in the papers that we’re going to do planning and people, you know, invited to come. And–and we staked it out and–and put–and, you know, paced it out and–and put flags there and so we developed a map for the woodlands. And it was in the papers, you know, so–and the next time we had–wanted to collect seeds because we were gonna restore the prairie, so there were stories in the paper that we were going seed-gathering so we could do–so every week there was something going on. And with all these things going on and everybody focusing on Armand Bayou, how could Friendswood say, “We’re not gonna sell it to you?” They did but it never got into the papers.
DR: I saw that the–sometimes you took out advertisements in The New York Times and in Time Magazine, for national …
HG: Well, we got that donated. We didn’t pay for that.
DR: You didn’t do it.
HG: Yeah, that was in the …
DT: The national campaign and …
HG: We–I–we meet–yeah, it’s in here, I got it. “We urgently need money to build–absolutely nothing there.” Goodwin, Wingfield, and Dellinbaum did that.
DT: ***?
HG: Jane Wingfield. Yes, that was, uh-huh, Jane Wingfield’s idea. And then Terry Hershey was on the Mississippi with Liz Carpenter and they came up with a poem, “The Creature Christmas List.” Do you know that story? Um-hmm, yeah.
DT: Tell us about it.
HG: Huh?
DT: If you would. Tell us about it, if you would.
HG: Oh, O.K. Well, let’s see, I think it’s in your packets. Let’s see if I have it here, too.
DR: Is Liz Carpenter from Houston or …
HG: What’d you say?
DR: Is Liz Carpenter …
HG: Liz Carpenter was secretary to–was the press secretary or something for Lyndon Johnson, in Washington. And, you know, the Hersheys–took her on the–on the Mississippi. He was in the shipping business and they have boats on the Mississippi so they–they came. O.K., I’ll tell you about it, just a minute now. It’s in here someplace. [Pause.]
“Five dollars saves my lily pad, $10 saves my nest.
Twenty saves our holy homes, 50 saves the rest.
One hundred gives us room to roam, 500 saves our pond.
One thousand helps us build the path the children walk upon.”
And there were pictures of animals–the lily pad, the frog and the nest, the bird and the homes. The holes in the–the raccoons in the holes and–and so on. So this was at Christmas, thing for people to contribute money for the–for the fund.
DT: I–I have a sort of general question about fund-raising and I’m curious what you think. It seems like much of the impetus and the actual dollars came from the private sector, although there was, you know, significant matching money from the public.
HG: Not–no, it–wait a minute, no, let’s take it back. The–I would–the total was–Armand Bayou had contributed $493,750. The total was 6,452,000 before we got through with it. With all the tract.
DT: So there really–well, it was about 20-80 or so, on the whole fund?
HG: Well, it–the–there were two grants that were made–no, that was the only grant that–tract 7 was the only grant that would match with private monies. The rest of it was all public monies.
DT: I see.
HG: O.K. Well–O.K., let me finish this story because it gets to be–the plot thickens.
DT: [Laughs.]
HG: [Laughs.] O.K. So, after this flawless negotiation–O.K., I gotta–‘scuse me. I gotta turn this one. All right. When the county–oh. The county–we have–thank you. We helped the county pass a bond election, then the new commissioners came in. The first thing they did is to appoint a Parks and Recreation Department, or a Parks Department. And the–the importance of that is that to get federal money, you must have a Parks Department. You cannot get federal money–Armand was the one that was asking for the Parks Department. I asked for it on his behalf. We finally elected Judge Elliott, and it was a–a more open, more environmental, commissioner’s court, and the first thing they did was to appoint a new parks–a parks department. And the other thing–the second thing they did is they had a bond election for parks, a five-million-dollar bond election. And out of that–and we helped ’em pass the bond election. We campaigned for it, wrote letters, you know, and all that. So, for the–and Tom Bass was elected commissioner for the precinct, Clear Lake 1, I think it is. On–anyway, so the county committed $3 million to help purchase Armand Bayou. So Friendswood Development of course went to them, before–you know, before we even knew about it, right after the new commission was in–they came to them to ask them to buy tract 9. I mean, they wanted–offered to sell them tract 9–tract 9, and–$5,000 an acre or something and this was low land, you know. I mean, it was way above. So all these new appraisals that we–I mean, the new maps really didn’t help the price. We thought–you know, we were trying to–so then, the county agreed. And they applied for money through the Department of Interior and they got the matching money and they bought tract 9. So then the question was–then we had this problem of they–they won’t sell tract 7. No, by that time the–Friendswood had changed their mind and said they wouldn’t sell tract 7, unless they also sell–send tract 10. You know, again the same story. So the county applied for tracts 7 and 10, and signed a contract with Friendswood to buy it for $5,000 an acre. But Pasadena had already gotten matching money from HUD to buy it at 3,500 an acre. So Friendswood said, “We’re not gonna sell it to Pasadena. We’ll sell it to the county.” And they wouldn’t even–after that other land they just wouldn’t deal with Pasadena. So there was a deadlock. I mean, it took a year–it took a year or something like that to resolve–we had meetings and everything else. So finally everybody got together and we got the–all the federal agencies and the county and–well, everybody got together in one room, and they decided that they would–county would make up the difference. Pasadena–well, you see, and at–in the meantime HUD was breathing down our necks because they said, if–this was–they approved the grant in ’72. And we didn’t buy it and at the end of ’74 they said, “Well, we’re gonna cancel your grant if you don’t buy it–I mean, right away.” So we were gonna lose this $350,000 from the–from the–from HUD. So they finally got agreement–everybody got together and they got an agreement that they would sell–Friendswood would sell it to the county. The county would use the HUD money and would pay up the difference with the county money. The plot would go–and HUD money would give the–HUD would give the money to the county instead of to Pasadena, so–Pasadena would end up with the whole thing, using the HUD money. And as–part of their condition was that the–the property that was south of Bay Area Boulevard, all this that was Pasadena’s–Pasadena would sell that to the county, so that all this would be county and all this would be Pasadena. Well, this–it’s only 2 and 3 that’s Pasadena.
DT: So everything north of …
HG: So 2 and 3–1, 2 and 3 …
DT: –the Boulevard.
HG: –is now Pasadena, and–county bought this.
DR: There it’s south of the Boulevard.
HG: Yeah, O.K. And in the process we lost tract 11, because when the–when the department–see, the county was dealing with the Department of Interior. They were providing the matching money. But the matching money from the Department of Interior, it was being–they finally caught on that the appraisals were too high when they got the lower–lower appraisal. Then there was gonna be less money, so the county decided not to buy tract 11, so we lost that. So that was the thing. And–anyway, so we got the park but–it didn’t go the way we wanted to go, but it–a lot of things happened.
DT: Right, so you later …
HG: And the thing is that we were never combative about it. When Friendswood didn’t–wanted it to go away, we just ignored them and went about our business, you know? And basically that’s what we did in this piece of property, which is a similar story.
DT: Well, can you tell us a little bit about how Friendswood viewed open space, versus the way the–the public group viewed open space? You know, it–it appears that–that …
HG: But to them anything–I mean, a tennis court is open space.
DT: Right. The recreational areas, …
HG: Golf courses and …
DT: –even if it’s paved and it has lines drawn.
HG: Yeah, yeah. And the first thing is–you know, one of the things that was really–where we got their ire, they really got angry at us, because …
DT: Yeah.
HG: –when we met with Friendswood–I have a friend who was a–he was professor of geology at U. of H. and studied subsidence, that was his thing–or studied faults, …
DT: Right.
HG: –actually but subsidence was–and he had the Turner, Collie and Braden study on subsidence and he–a big book like this, you know, and he lent it to me, and I took it with me to the meeting. And this was before the studies were made, you know, but I–I already saw from there that there was a subsidence so I showed it to them. And before I showed it to ’em, I think somehow, Friendswood said, “Oh, yeah, we know all about subsidence, you know. The houses that are being built at 13–there was a slight elevation at 13 feet. Oh, 20 years from now they’re gonna be down at 10 feet, we know that.” And he said that, you know, and I quoted him in the paper. They got so mad!
DT: [Laughs.]
HG: [Laughs.] That was the one time when we really–you know, it wasn’t–we didn’t say anything about them. We just quoted exactly what he said.
DT: Well, this gets us back to some of the thought about how the media helped you. Didn’t–this was mostly Harold Scarlet and the [Houston] Post.
HG: Well, now how–not only that but the Pasadena papers–see, I mean, I wrote the stories for the Pasadena papers and wrote news releases and took it over there. And when we had people–when we had people like Maurice–Maurice Arnold from Department of Interior–well, the head of Department of Interior came on a tour. So I took a tape recorder–I tape-recorded his speech, and–because we didn’t have any reporters there–and then I transcribed it and then I underlined the pieces that I wanted the paper to quote, and I gave it to them and they did. And–you know, I did their homework for them, …
DT: [Laughs.]
HG: –because if I had just called ’em or if they had come, that wouldn’t’ve been the story. So we directed the way we wanted the stories written.
DT: Well, did …
HG: He said something very nice about Armand Bayou so that was highlighted in the transcript.
DT: Well–did their homework. Well, did you find that–that the reporters ever had pressure from the publisher and the editor to carry or not carry a story because of advertiser …
HG: No. Well, no. No, I don’t think–you mean, whether Exxon was trying to stop it? I don’t think so. I mean, I–I don’t–I–I was never aware of that. Harris Collins was very friendly. Harris Collins would do anything for us, you know, we’d just get–and–and I have some notes in there, and I wrote him–you know, I’d go through–know him so well so I could write him–just a scribbled piece of paper, and “Please don’t print this,” and “Print this, this is for your background information,” you know, that sort of thing. And I gave you a few examples of that, because when I was going through my notes, the things that are not published are very much more interesting than the things that are, you know, in reading my notes.
DT: Something else I wanted to visit with you about. You mentioned earlier about Reverend Skiles, …
HG: Yes.
DT: –and his role in this, and I wondered if he had a different approach to open space and habitat protection? He was an …
HG: Oh, yeah. Definitely he was …
DT: –idea of religion and stewardship and …
HG: Well, he was …
DT: Uh-huh.
HG: –also he started–help eliminate pollution and he was recycling–you know, this was before it was–before it was fashionable to recycle. I mean, he was really an environmentalist. He’s also professor of English at the U. of H.
DT: I see.
HG: And I think–at the downtown branch, I think, I don’t know. And–O.K.
DT: Well, did he ever talk to you about what persuaded him to–to be sort of environmentally concerned?
HG: You mean–well, his background? Well, you–how he got that way? No, I don’t think I ever discussed that with him.
DT: I see.
HG: Yeah.
DT: Something else that–that seems to come through in your story about Pasadena and–and Harris County is that they–they didn’t have a very developed park ethic/department/policy, and–and much of it seemed to be encouraged in the federal level, and from the private sector, but that the government itself didn’t have much initiative. Is that what you mean?
HG: No, and you know that this is one thing is that there was–we had a story–and I think it’s in your packet, too–that the National Parks and Recreation Association recommends 15 acres of parks per thousand population. Harris County had five acres of parks, you know, so we talked about that. And–I don’t know, Pasadena maybe had one or two acres. Bellaire had almost nothing.
DT: Can you speculate about why that–that was?
HG: Because–well, I–can I talk about this–this part now?
DT: Please, yeah. So …
HG: O.K., because that came next, you know? So we finally got the land sold and–you know, finally in 1974–it was spring, 1974 or summer, 1974, it was postponed several times–the closing finally got closed and all that. And then the McAshans pledged the money for the building, and then they also pledged $50,000 a year for the first five years for the operation. And so we hired a director, and then my husband–and this was all going on and in June of ’75–no, wait a minute. So then, I got the American Motors Conservation Award in Washington. And this leads me into this story, because while I was in Washington I went to the Smithsonian, and just by chance I saw the Discovery Room at the Smithsonian. And there were kids lining up to go in there and they had little boxes and report all the museum collections and the kids were sitting on the floor and sorting things out and having cards and answering questions and–you know, it was so busy. So when I got back I went to the Museum of Natural Science and I told Dr. Pulling, you know, this–“I saw this wonderful place at the Smithsonian and you ought to have a discovery room,” and–“Oh, we can’t do that because we don’t have the money for it. We get money for space programs and medical programs, you know, and minerals. We don’t get money for this sort of thing.” So, eventually we have one here. It’s just–you know, the idea came from them–from them. Anyway–so, in 1975 my husband was transferred to Holland for a year. And I–you know, so–anyway, so this got to a point where I could leave. So, I–in Holland I started going around nature centers, look at–you know, look at what they have or do and what kind of nature preserves they have and all that, and in the process we found wonderful playgrounds, and–made out of–there was a hurricane in Holland and the dead trees all ended up in the playgrounds, you know, really imaginative structures. And, then we discovered Adventure Playground where the kids were building their own thing out of scrap lumber, you know, like at Children’s Village, where they went in there for the afternoon and–with hammers and nails and are constructing shacks and tree houses and whatever. And so when I got back–well, I took a lot of pictures. I went all over Holland and I–I went to–I found out the name of the organization. There was an Adventure Playground Association and there was one in London and one in Holland and so I wrote to them and I got all this information. I came back and we started the Houston Adventure Play Association. And, there was–we started out at Mountain Park, you know, and then Nina gave us money for it and then, in the end the guy who–Gilbert’s–Stewart Gilbert, Stewart–no, wait a minute, what’s his name? Something Gilbert. Anyway, he was all–we put money into it and then he withdrew the money and so it folded up and so I returned the money to Nina. She gave us $10,000 for it, or five thou–I forgot. So I took it back to her because it just wasn’t a good goal. Now I mean, it–they didn’t have tax exemption and, you know, it didn’t go but anyway–but because of that there was another–you know, we founded the Houston Adventure Play Association and they now have an adventure playground. So that’s kind of a sideline, so then–we had this playground here. Oh, in Holland, a lot of the playgrounds were built by volunteers in the community. And I took all these pictures and I came back and there was this horrible playground here with–a mud hole with broken climbing gym and 26 swings and …
[Tape 2 of 3, Side A.]
HG: … And I took all these pictures and I came back and there was this horrible playground here with–a mud hole with broken climbing gym and 26 swings and–and that’s about it, you know, and no place to sit, the–and mud puddles and everything. So I went to the city and I said, “You need a better playground.” And they says, “Oh, but the kids don’t play with what we’ve got.” So I said, “Well, we’ll see about that.” So I took my slides and I took them to every class in Bellaire–four schools, every class–showed them the pictures and I said, “If you were a playground designer, what would you like to have,” and the kids produced pictures. So then we took the pictures and had an exhibit, and we got judges–the P.T.A. and the Chambers of Commerce and the bank presidents and the councilmen and everybody was to judge which playgrounds they should build for the kids. And–and we gave the kids awards and they got T-shirts, “I’m a Bellaire Park Designer.” We had 26 first prizes. Anyway, so then we invited Texas A&M’s architecture students–there was a course being taught on playground design, and–Dr. Rodney Hill taught it, and so we invited them down to see the exhibit and they made models of the playgrounds. And then we had another exhibit of the models, and we invited all these judges to come and asked them to judge the playgrounds and, “Which one would you like to build, and would you help volunteer to build it?” And then they judged it on the basis of safety, cost, ease of construction, aesthetics, and–I’ve forgotten what the other one was–play value. And so then we took the prize-winning thing, and we told the city we were gonna build it, and we did build it. And the city gave us $7,000 to–for the materials which we didn’t use because we got everything donated–I think we used 3,000 out of it. But anyway, we got the stainless steel for the slides donated and the hardware and we built the tree house and we got all the nuts and bolts donated and–you know, I mean, it was a beautiful playground.
DT: Well, I’m curious and–what year was this, first of all?
HG: This was 1969. We finished the playground in–no, wait a minute–’79, we finished–finished the playground in ’80.
DT: Well, these–the designs that the–the Bellaire Park designers produced, all these kids’ playgrounds …
HG: Yeah. But they were …
DT: were these slides and swings, or were they mud holes and tree houses?
HG: No, they were–they were towers with a net. There was a huge net that you had to go through from one tower to the other, you know. And–and there was a–a climbing–a–a pole–a stainless-steel pole with a hole in one of the towers and you–you slid down, and these were built around a tree. It was like a tree house, you know. I mean, it was an interesting–there’s a–there’s a picture of it in your packet.
DT: Did you see any sort of unusual designs that these kids came up with that …
HG: Yeah, but the kids–oh, cable glides, we had one–one. You know, I mean, they didn’t come up–they saw my slides but they adapted them. They had boats and–you know, fun things. Anyway, so we finished the playground in–I think it was 1980–I’ve got all that there. And–that’s another–another one here. And the property–this property was advertised for sale, and–O.K. [Pause.] O.K., this property was advertised for sale, and the playground was crowded ’cause we had birthday parties there every weekend. People came from all over, not just Bellaire, you know. It just got to be a popular playground, because this was the only one like this in Houston. And so, we decided–you know, the Brown Foundation contributed 50,000 to Armand Bayou–or 100,000, I don’t remember–I can look that up. Anyway, so I called Mike Stude from the Brown Foundation and asked him if–oh, first of all, this–this was–there was a thick hedge around there and we couldn’t see the property. I looked on the aerial map, you know. It was beautiful from the–from the air. And the–one of the Councilmen was a friend of the realtor’s and so he made an appointment with us to go–come and see the property. And …
DT: And this property is adjacent to the …
HG: –this property–this property …
DT: –playground, I guess. It abuts to the playground?
HG: Well, the playground’s across the street. The playground was in–oh, next to the water tanks.
DT: I see.
HG: There’s an–Evergreen Park is across the street.
DT: O.K.
HG: So this property was for sale. And so, Mike Stude came with us when we first came to visit this for the first time, and you know, everybody liked it so I said, well, would the Brown Foundation like to buy it. They were asking 1,300,000 for it.
DT: Uh-huh.
HG: And he says, “Well, I’ll ask George Brown.” So then he called me and says, “Well, Mr. Brown says that if you can raise $10,000 in the community, he’ll make a small donation.” So I got on the phone–we didn’t have I.R.S. exemption or nothing, you know. I just got on the phone and I said, “There’s a beautiful piece of property, want to get a park. We might get a grant but we need to raise some money. We need your pledges.” So I got $17,000 in two weeks in pledges. Called Mike Stude, and the Brown Foundation agreed to–made a pledge of hundred thousand at closing. But the property was 1,300,000. So–so we started to go house to house, and “Give Bellaire a gift of green.” Everybody who contributed 50 cents and up got a green ribbon tied to their front yard. And we called the–all these other–Cullen Foundation and Houston Endowment and–and then hell broke loose. There were people in the city who wanted this for a development, wanted the tax revenue. They didn’t want undesirables to come to the city, you know, and drug addicts to hang around in a park–they just didn’t want a park. And so they started calling the Foundation and–oh, we went to the City Council first then asked them to buy–have a bond election. Says, no, they couldn’t possibly do that because–now you–this answers your question. “Bonds are for streets and sewers, not for parks. We would accept, you know, donated park but we can’t buy parks. Period. So if you can raise the money for it,”–I said, “Well, if we can raise half of the money, would you apply for a matching grant, Texas Parks and Wildlife?” O.K. So then, we started raising money. And then, things changed because–and you–all this time we had these calls, telephone calls. There were calls to–to Parks and Wildlife. You know, they said, “Old widow!”–she wasn’t a widow, she was this old maid but–anyway, she was living in this house and the–these people are ousting her from the house and they don’t want to sell and–and there’s plenty of land in Bellaire, they don’t need the park, you know, and–all these calls. So we went to Texas Parks and Wildlife. Twice we had to go to Texas Parks and Wildlife, with pictures and stories and reports and–you know, I mean, show them everything to try to mend fences there–and letters of endorsements and all that. So, this went on. In the meantime, there was an election and there was a new Council and the new Council didn’t want the park. They were–you know, the people didn’t want it. I got crank calls and would–calls that–“Park bitch! I’m gonna get you. And we’re gonna poison the trees with copper sulfate,” and, you know, all these kind of things. And so we just didn’t answer that, didn’t–you know, the thing was when there’s controversy we ignore it. And Terry Hershey–she got us in touch with the Texas Conservation Foundation, John Hamilton, …
DR: Um-hmm.
HG: –in Austin, and we set up–because we didn’t have nonprofit status. So they set up a–fund, what was it called? Bellaire Parks–wait a minute, I can’t remember. Bellaire Park Fund or something like that. And, so–when we collected money we sent it to Austin. They would write the thank-you letters and they maintained it. They kept the books on it, you know, so we–we raised the money that way. And, then, also Terry got us in touch with Trust for Public Land, Phil Molene. And they negotiated the–it got so bad the city just didn’t want to have anything to do with us. They wouldn’t talk to us, and we couldn’t talk to the Parks and Recreation Department. So, John Hammond would come down here and talk to them and ask them what we have to do before they would accept a park. O.K., so they would accept a park, provided that the donor provides perpetual maintenance. They passed an ordinance, that they could’ve–you know, they’d need to do that. We would have to do all the development, and all the maintenance. And we would have to cut down the hedge on the street and we had to clean the–the chain-link fence between the–the property–the neighborhood property so there would be a clean chained fence so–you know, wouldn’t damage the fence or something, the trees wouldn’t damage the fence. And the police has to be able to see so–through the park–when they drive by they have to see the whole park. And–you know, so all–so–we didn’t say yes so we didn’t say who–no, wait a minute, so–anyway, then we got the Trust for Public Land, and the Trust for Public Land would go and talk to the owners, would talk to the city, would talk to Texas Parks and Wildlife–would kind of come up with a package. So finally after a year of negotiation back and forth–and in the meantime we just ignored all this and just kept raising money and there was no–you know, we didn’t talk about the controversy. And so, then, they got a wonderful arrangement with the owners that they would sell–and the owners–there were three of them, two brothers and a sister, and they couldn’t see eye to eye on that. They’d–some of them didn’t want to sell. So, it was complicated. But we finally–and also we didn’t have an option, you know, it was just a sort of gentlemen’s agreement. We wanted to buy the land, would they keep it off the market. And so in the end we got a–we got a contract that–in order to get matching money from the state, we have to have clear title. So if we have *** when we–by the time we pay off two-thirds of the property they would give us two–title to two-thirds of the land. And the rest of it we would own but would have no money in it, and we could pay that off, later. So we bought it. First thing is the bottom part up to the–up to the–the park. But anyway, first of all, in 1973–no, ’83, I’m sorry. In 1983, the Trust for Public Land got a contract to buy–I mean, they bought it–in other words, they really bought it on our behalf, with $200,000 down payment, and we had a note to pay off the rest of it, so the city didn’t own it. The Trust for Public Land and the friends owned it, friends–the Trust for Public Land owned it on our behalf. So, we could do anything we wanted in the development, you know? They couldn’t tell us, “Do this and do that.” And so we decided to landscape it in the natural way. And, living in Holland and seeing all the parks, I could see the difference between American parks and–and Dutch parks, and in Holland there was shrubbery and there were fences and there–I mean, shrubbery, and there were–the area was divided.
DT: I see.
HG: In American parks you could see from one end to the other. It was all one and the first thing they would do is to clear all the underbrush so it would be safe, you know? And Dr. Pulley told me–well, in Herman Park they did that. They cleared all the underbrush and the trees are dying and there’re no little trees coming back up, you know? And even in Memorial Park the Arboretum was telling me that the police is always coming in there and “You’ve gotta clear this and you gotta clear this,” you know, and they have to fight them all the time. So we didn’t do that over here. I mean, we left the–we left the–we cleared it some because it was really a jungle. It was terrifically overgrown and a lot of dead stuff and–and briers and bamboo–I mean, bamboo everywhere. So we did a lot of clearing but–and I’ll have to take you on a walk to show you–we maintained the natural–you know, a lot of places are natural. And then we had a landscape architect–we had a lot of volunteers. This was–we had no money for the development of the park, and no money for the renovation of the house because all the money we were raising was to buy the–to pay off the note on the property. So we had volunteers and we had community service workers and we had donations. And, one of the volunteers was a landscape architect, and so he held a workshop on pruning–show how to prune naturally, to keep the natural shape and so on–and then the people who took the workshop did all the–the pruning. We came every weekend to do the pruning. And then when it came to–well, that was another serendipity story. So–anyway, so then he would go–he–he also showed us something that was interesting. The hedge along this thing was really overgrown, it was just a messy hedge. Then he says, “Well, clean it and thin it,” and something, “and–and then go and till the land.” And he drew a–a chalk line–it’s very pretty. He’d draw a–with powdered chalk, you know, like you’d do for lines of a baseball field–drew a line there “and behind that till it, and just let it sit,” and–and said, “put some mulch on it and everything,” so we got wood chips, mulch, and so on. And he said when you do that, the soil becomes aerated, and all the dormant seed–the compacted soil, which didn’t support any life–well, now that–all the dormant seeds were starting to sprout. And so, we have big trees there now because of–to just let it grow. And, so that’s the–basically the philosophy, then we let the wild flowers go. In the spring we didn’t mow so we had–covered–I mean, the lawn is just covered with little pleat Irises, you know, the blue ones?
DT: It’s wonderful.
HG: It’s beautiful.
DT: Hana, I have two questions about–about the landscaping, both here and in Armand’s Bayou, and they sort of …
HG: Yeah.
DT: –lead off with what you’re discussing. One has to do with a story we heard this morning from a–an educator at Armand Bayou and she was saying that–one of the things that most moved her was a child who was very frightened of the outdoors, and felt that everything was gonna either claw him or bite him or, you know, frightened him in some way, and I wonder if–if you think that that’s something that carries through to policemen and council members when they talked about the murderers that were gonna be lurking in our Bayou or …
HG: Well, …
DT: –or the derelicts who would be lurking here.
HG: Yeah. O.K. Yes and no. O.K., yes–yes, and–well, there’s something else. The–the people that–some of the people who objected, they objected because “we’re gonna get children coming here from outside of Bellaire–you know, school groups from outside of Bellaire.” Says, “What’s the difference between Bellaire children and Houston children?” And the answer one of the women gave is the racial mix is different. You know?
DT: And this is 1980.
HG: They were afraid of having blacks come in here, you know? So that’s one side. Now, the other question is–and you can talk to our naturalist about this, too, because they say when the children–we tried to bring in children from inner city here, you know? And, the children–some of those children have never been in a–out in the–in the country, in the natural area. In fact, one of the children saw a squirrel. Said, “A rat, a rat!” You know? All they know is a vacant lot which is–full of …
DT: Rat with a bushy tail.
HG: –and–yeah. So anyway–and they are afraid, and they’re afraid that a snake is gonna bite them or the–whatever, you know. There might be some possums or raccoon or whatever, I don’t know, that they’re–they’re hiding in that–they are afraid, and this is one thing that they should teach the children. When they go out into the country to touch things to turn the log over, be careful of the–you know, to turn it away from you so that, if there’s a snake it wouldn’t–you know, you be careful of that but, they also tell ’em to pick up the worms and to show that Nature is friendly, you know, and we teach those–teach that to the children. So that is true, what you’re saying. But that was not necessarily the motive of the people who objected. The police is a different story. You know, they think that there’re gonna be drug people hiding in there. Well, one thing we did is to build a toddlers playground because we feel that if there’re gonna be mothers with children, there’re not gonna be drug people around, you know? The two don’t mix.
DT: Um-hmm.
HG: They don’t like to hang around when there’re too many–parents, families around.
DT: Sure. Yeah.
HG: But anyway, one–another part of the story and then I’ll finish. The–the house was a problem and the house was absolutely–and I will show you pictures of that. I mean, it was in shambles. There was a–right here where you’re sitting–and I think you can see it on the floor–there–there’s water coming down from the–from the second story. There was a bucket here to collect rain water from the roof–you know, through the second–and another one in the corner over there. And–and everything …
DR: Sounds like my house.
HG: And–and everything–and everything was dark green. Absolutely–you know, I mean–about the shade of–of the–the Vermeers ladies’ dress or something, only green, sealing the woodwork, and I mean–it was gloomy, it was awful–and then the windows were all overgrown with vines. I got six wasp bites when I was cleaning them off, and everything was just absolutely–and the people smoked marijuana and the windows were covered with–not this one in the–in the–the lounge–that were covered with black, you know, and we had to use razor blades to saw them off. So anyway–but we didn’t–the owners were very private and they didn’t let anybody into the house, and–first they didn’t let anybody on the property. So, you know, at Armand Bayou we had a nature walk the first Sunday of every month. So here–we couldn’t bring anybody here. So we finally got permission to have–every Sunday in October of–I think it was ’81, or ’82–to allow public hikes, you know. So we had that over here, …
DT: Yeah.
HG: –because you couldn’t see anything from the street. It was just very thick hedge. And so, then–when we first walked into the house it was–you know, it was a disaster when we got into it. WE thought we would just paint it–have a painting party and invite everybody. And just by chance is–another little serendipity piece was that–phone rang, and a friend of mine who was program director–program chairman of Kiwanis Club said, and–“Our speaker didn’t show up, could you talk to us.” And he called me about 11 o’clock and the lunch was at 12, “Would you come?” So I picked up–I had slides and–you know, of the property and I picked it up and I went over there, and I talked about when–all–I was talking about this house.
DT: Um-hmm.
HG: You know, and so there was a guy there and he said, “Do you have a contractor?” I said, “I don’t know what we’d do with it,” because–one of our board members was an architect, David Driskill, and he said he’s related to the Driskills in the–San Antonio. Anyway, he–he said, “Well, you can’t tear that house down, it’s a treasure.” So, “What’re we gonna do? We don’t have the money to do–build it and the city wants us to tear it down, we don’t even have money to tear it down.” So–so he said, “Do you have an architect?” And I said–no, first of all, “Do you have a contractor?” And I said, “No, do we need a contractor?” And he says, “Yes, you need a contractor and I’d like to volunteer to be your contractor. And do you have an architect?” I said, “No, we don’t have an architect.” And, so he said, “Well, I’ll bring an–I’ll bring somebody with me to be an architect,” so he brought Dan Bonham. They came that same afternoon and looked around, and he says, “Well, the house needs to be–foundation needs leveling.” “So what does that cost?” “Oh, $15,000.” And so–we don’t have that, and I says, “Well, use the Yellow Pages and call,” and they gave me a few names–you know, called contractors–and having done the playground with all the donated materials. Called and we got the Vulcan Foundation–yes, they’ll do that “if you can get us the concrete and the rebars and–you know.” So we got somebody else to donate that, and, you know, we got the leveling done and then we needed a new roof. And then we needed–so all the electrical wiring had to be done over. We–the first time we put the lights on, it started to smoke–the fabric was smoking.
DT: [Laughs.]
HG: And the first time we flushed the toilet upstairs there was a shower downstairs. I mean, it was just really a disaster. So–and all this time, the–the Council didn’t want it and the Chamber of Commerce didn’t want it so we had all these enemies in town, you know? And I happened to be in the Chamber of Commerce, even though the Chamber of Commerce was opposing it, and it was–somebody I knew was sitting there and we started talking and–and this guy got interested, and he was a retired banker. And he says, “Well, let’s see what I can do to help you,” so he found us an electrician. The–you know, as a banker he had lent him money so he got us an electrician. Says, “If we don’t have a job going, then we’ll come–and we have a crew who’s not doing anything, we’ll come and do work for you, provided you get all the materials donated.” So we got the–a plumber and we got an electrician, and we had to redo the plumbing. Everything had to be copper, and all the electrical work had to be in–in conduit–you know, commercial code. And, so I called 50 million people to get the donations. And, first they gave me a list of electrical supply and I found out that it was gonna cost–just to start with, $10,000, it was a lot more. But we got everything donated from, you know, different companies, everybody contributed. I had the list and I sent the list around. “Check off what you have, what you can give us and–you know.” So in the end we got everything–we got everything donated. And we got the–the wallpaper–and there’s a list on the–on the–on the stairway of all the items that were donated and who donated and there were about 200 companies for the house, and about a hundred for the park. For the park we had to do all the development, so we did the–we had to build a parking lot so we got the Navy Reserves, the Seabees, to come and drill, once a month, Saturday and Sunday, and we got the equipment for them. We borrowed the–donated–you know, got a donation of the–the tractors and the sheepskin rollers and all the equipment that–the heavy equipment that we needed and we had it delivered there and they used it and it went back Monday. Anyway, and, the electrical–we put in these lights–in the park and we got all that for–three or four different companies donated the fixtures and the wires and the–digging all the trenches. And we got the roof and it was three companies that did the roof, each section of the roof–and we got the–the shingles donated. And then when we got the roof put up, the city inspector came over and had–and says, “You have to have a one-hour fire roof, commercial code, because–even though there’s not another house next to it but it’s gonna be–it’s a public place so you’ve got to–you know, the code applies as if there was another house next to it and that’s what that was about. You know, so I said, “Well, we can’t do that.” So we finally negotiated with them and they says, “If you put in a sprinkler system, then you don’t have to do that.” So we got a company to donate the sprinkler system. And you–this story–and that–O.K., so they did that. They said, “Well, we won’t run the line for you, we’ll just put it in the house. You’ll have to get the equipment.” So we got all the–the parks donated, and then we had to run a line to the city. They had to put in a–a concrete box and the–the valve in there and everything. So, we finally didn’t have anybody so these guys–well, the city did a little of it but then they came and they laid it. The–the president of the company and the managers of the company came on a weekend and they laid the connection between here and the–the street. And then we needed the painting done and so we started to scrape every bit of paint–there was, like, a hundred layers of paint on there. It was all alligatored–puckering, you know, and peeling and everything–so we scraped it. We got the hair dryers to soften the paint and scrape it off and we had volunteers. We had community service volunteers–you know, probationers working and …
DT: Sure.
HG: –and after we got all the paint off then we got the painting apprentices to come, and they did–they taught classes here, and the students painted the windows, and then they laid the vinyl. All the vinyl that you see around here is donated. This is left over from the Warwick Hotel. You know, we got commercial–companies donated left-over pieces.
DT: Ah.
HG: So it’s all over–I mean, the whole house is that way.
DT: Well, tell me something. I mean, it seems like both at Armand Bayou and here, that you tell about it as being serendipity and wonderful coincidence but it seems like there’s a lot of, you know, perspiration involved …
HG: [Laughs.] It is.
DT: –but there’s also a lot of altruism, and I was wondering …
HG: Well, …
DT: –if you could say something about, you know, …
HG: O.K.
DT: –about volunteer contributions to public interest groups and how you think that works in this market economy?
HG: Well, as I say, I’m not the kind of person that runs out and volunteers. It’s just because it had to be, you know? I mean, if I don’t do it, who will? I mean, it’s got to be. And, I’m–you know, and my husband, he was even more–when he retired he was here. He retired in 1986. And before that he worked on the playground. He supervised all the construction of the playground, and–and he did work in the park. I mean, he was here from eight in the morning until midnight sometimes. And then he would sweep the floor before he left home. You know, I mean, it was really exhausting work. And–and he did it because it needed to be done, and didn’t think anything of it, you know? And–I mean, it was–whatever needed to be fixed–and I gave you a packet on him because I wouldn’t’ve done it without him. But before that–you know, way back, when he was reading the papers and if something happened in the world or if something needed to be done, or the Bayous were being damaged or whatever, he said, “Somebody ought to do something about it,” and then he went to work. And so here I was thinking, somebody ought to do something about it and I started thinking about him and talking about him and–you know. And then the other person, this–Terry, you know. I mean, Terry is like that, and being around Terry, [laughs], you know, when I taught at DuSchen, I used to–on my way home I used to go swimming at Terry’s, …
DT: Oh.
HG: –because DuSchen is right near there. Well, when I went swimming, she would give me something to read or she was on the phone doing something, so I picked up on, you know, all the things–you know.
DT: Well, that–that–that actually is a good lead-in to something I wanted to ask you about. You’re–you’re a mentor to many other people now but who do you feel were mentors to you?
HG: Well, O.K., when I talked about my family as–you know, my mother, when we–we escaped from Czechoslovakia. O.K. But, it wasn’t easy, when my father died in–there and my mother was in London alone, oh, with–you know, and had to support herself and all that. But her thing was–first of all, when we were still growing up, we were still in Prague. My grandfather was a doctor, he was the Secretary of Health for Bohemia. And, one day I said something to him–I was bored, and he was so angry he fell down. “The world is full of things to do, how can you be bored?” You know, and he was always teaching us something, always showing us something and, you know, reading something, and my mother was the same way. And we went on vacation, we’d take books and she would read historical novels to us and something, you know. And then, when we were in London as refugees, I said, you know, “Why didn’t you ever buy me”–we didn’t have any money, in Prague we had a little–enough money. So we says, “Why didn’t you ever buy me something when you had the money?” And says, “Because if I had you would’ve missed it now.” And then she would say to us, “You know, what you have in your head, nobody can take away from you. Everything that you possess, somebody can take away from you.” So, it wasn’t giving us things, it was learn–teaching us, educating us, you know? Making us want to do things. And then the other thing about my mother was, that–she knew how to cope and how to get things done and–we’d ask her, “How do you do it?” “If it doesn’t go one way, we’ll try another way,” you know? There was no–and so this is somehow–subconsciously, you know, I wasn’t really thinking about that, but after she died then I thought about all the–you know, her life and so on. So then I thought about that, you know, because–it’s just gonna be one way or the other. [Laughs.]
DT: By hook or by crook.
HG: Yeah. And my grandmother died in concentration camp and I got her letters from my mother. I had the letters and after my mother died I got the letters and took ’em home. And, she’s writing before she went to concentration camp. They took everything away, they put her in a little–maid’s room, a little–like a closet, and somebody else was living in her apartment. And she wrote letters to the family that–her daughters were in–one was in Santo Domingo, one was in–in New York. And she would ask about the grandchildren and ask about this and how is he doing and commenting about what they’re doing, never talked about herself. The only thing about herself–“And it’ll work out somehow. It’ll be all right. I had the–I had my little room painted, make it cheerful.” YOu know. I mean, somehow or other, …
DT: Very positive. Uh-huh.
HG: –there was never a complaint and never–you know. We’re able to put up with–I don’t know, it was hard to understand. So, …
DT: Well, is that due to the fact that–or the terrible oppression and persecution in–in Czechoslovakia and Eastern Europe, is that something that–that sort of influenced your willingness to sort of be more outspoken here, and to use the rights that you have, or–or is that just too remote aND THAT’S …
HG: Well, that’s a little–you know, I hadn’t really thought about it. It was more of the fact that if it doesn’t go one way you try another way, you know? I mean, that’s …
DT: And you were very creative.
HG: –that’s the way–and so–you know, and my husband had a lot to do with that, and he would–and he would put up with an awful lot because my house was a mess all the time because I had papers everywhere–and something else, you know. I have to tell you that when we were working at Armand Bayou, it was–for instance, we had these ads, you know. It run in about–I don’t know, ten papers. But I wrote, must’ve–50 letters and had an old mechanical typewriter. I couldn’t type very well, either, so it wasn’t doing it on the computer, [laughs], you know, like now. And then I’d had to make Xerox copies, and something else I did is whenever I wrote to an agency, this is–somebody taught me that–always CC everybody. So if we wrote to the Congress–agency would CC the Congressmen and we would CC the Governor and the Mayor and–you know. So everybody had to get a carbon copy–had to get a Xerox copy of that and I didn’t have a Xerox. So, Frank Smith–you know Frank Smith?
DT: Just barely.
HG: ***. So he had a Xerox in his office–he gave me the key to his office, “Any time, come and Xerox.” So, I had all these letters to do and had to get them out in a hurry to the–the insurance–the Federal Insurance Administration and HUD and, you know, Corps [US Army Corps of Engineers] and it–I mean, everybody had to get a letter. And so–working on the letters and I got them ready at 11:30 and the post office–or 11 o’clock. The post office–the mail went out at the main post office at midnight. So my husband drove me to Frank’s office–we live right around the corner here, to–on *** or something, you know, in–up on the–North Loop. We drove to his office, Xeroxed it, went downtown and mailed …
[Tape 2, Side B.]
HG: –and mailed it, by midnight. [Laughs.] This went on two or three times a week, you know. And he would do that, not thinking–I mean, he wouldn’t think about it. So, when we had collating to do and there were a hundred pages to be collated, so I said, “Well, that’s a big job, you can’t get it done.” “We’ll just sit there and do it, you know. If we just get started it’ll get done.” No matter how big the job is, it would get done.
DT: Um-hmm. You’re patient.
DR: Let me turn the tape recorders.
HG: So, and let’s see. We …
DT: Can we return to something, …
HG: yeah, sure.
DT: –that I’m intrigued by: the landscaping area?
HG: Yes.
DT: We talked a little bit about, you know, that the people who like there to be more open space, but I was intrigued that 25 years ago you were interested in prairie restoration, and that here again, at–Russ Pittman Park, you’ve tried to do the same thing by plowing up this area, tilling it, and then seeing what comes up, and I’m …
HG: Yeah.
DT: –curious how you see that as a kind of environmental movement …
HG: Yeah, well, you see, that’s because …
DT: –but it’s not only protecting a spot but it’s also restoring a spot.
HG: O.K., well, that’s because–because of being around people. You know, this–I didn’t know any of this before. I mean, being around Terry and the Soil Conservation Service, and hearing all these things, and at Armand Bayou–one other thing I didn’t talk about. I–I just touched on it. When–in 1971, you know, we were trying to get the public interested in Armand Bayou and had these walks. So we invited–Victor Emanuel led the first–led the first hike. And then he led a few more, and he said, “Well, you know, I can’t do that all the time. You’ve got to get other people involved.” So he got us a graduate student from Texas A&M. Fred Collins was one of them, Scott Holt, Betty Shepler–and Betty Shepler is a teacher around town, though he does something else *** environment. Anyway, so these guys came from A&M, on the weekend. We didn’t pay them. They just came and they led the hikes. And then we had professors from Rice and we had University of Houston professors and–and Dr. Joseph Patrick Kennedy from U.T., who is a very well-known herpetologist. Diana Hobby–when Bill Hobby was running for Governor, Diana Hobby came for–a tour, you know, that was with lots of publicity. Dr. Kennedy led the tour, brought snakes in on the tour. So I went on all these tours and everybody was talking about giving us a little lesson on ecology and plants and–you know. So I learned this as I–as I was working on that. So it’s–that’s how.
DT: And the thought …
HG: And the–the Soil Conservation Service that worked with Terry and, you know, the Bayou Preservation Association and so they got interested in the prairie and the–the wild grasses and we had a seminar on wild grasses. That was–that’s how I learned all that.
DT: And that the areas that–although they’re undeveloped, they’re not as they were, in sort of virgin, untouched condition.
HG: No, because Armand Bayou was grazed, and a lot of the original grasses are gone. And then, the shrubbery–bushy things, you know, woody things got in there and Chinese Tallow got in there, and plus, they planted exotic grasses–European grasses and that replaces the native grasses. Is that mine?
DR: Yes.
HG: And–[pause]–O.K. So–yeah, I mean, it was an education for me, and you know, our back yard–after this, our back yard is wild, too, and you know, it is interesting. There was a–Irving Glass, I think his name–no, I don’t know, I’ve forgotten his name. He did some work at Armand Bayou. He was an architect, and he lives in West U [West University Place]. And he was designing one of their exhibits and one day there was a meeting at his house. And his back yard is gorgeous, it’s just wilderness, you know? And that’s because he’s been going to Armand Bayou and he got the idea, too. If you don’t do anything you’re gonna have a forest.
DT: Great. That’s great.
DR: I’d like to go back to when you first joined the Buffalo Bayou Preservation …
HG: Yes.
DR: –Association. If you could tell me what is the purpose of the Women’s Committee they had in 1967 and ’68, and–I’ve seen your name listed as a member of that committee, …
HG: Oh, really?
DR: –with Carl–I mean, Mrs. Clubman[?]?
HG: Who was–who else was on the committee?
DR: I think her–I think her name was Clement, or something like that.
HG: Well, I’ve–you know, I don’t remember now what-all we did. We went on–on a lot of tours with–the Soil Conservation Service was giving us tours and then we wrote letters. We saw what they’re doing with–how they were damaging the ditches. You know, we went up to Addicks Dam one–one field trip we went to. They were–the Soil Conservation was complaining that they were channeling the Bayou at the head waters, and not at the bottom, you know, so that all this water would rush down and then there was no place for it to go. It started from the top. And then they were showing us how you can vegetate and how you can prevent erosion. And we watched the–you know, I did the slide show. I–I mean, I did the–contributed a lot of pictures for the slide show and went all over to take pictures. Don would tell me, you know, where they’re damaging something so I would go and then they’d get pictures.
DT: Can you touch on some of the people at Harris County Flood Control District? Tom Langford and people who, …
HG: Yeah.
DT: –you know, controlled a lot of the–the resources and …
HG: Yeah.
DT: –manpower and so on and–and what their thinking was like and–and how you influenced them?
HG: Well, their thinking was build a big–dig a ditch, [laughs], you know.
DT: Dig a ditch.
HG: Yeah, get the water out of here. It was–the idea that was new then was that for–it was what George Mitchell and Ian McHarg brought to the Woodlands was to build detention ponds, and not to put curbing–they were against–they–they don’t have curbing gutters in the Woodlands, or didn’t at the time, because they had swales to hold the water. And the point was to–not to let all the water go out at one time. And our back yard here in Bellaire slopes to the back–I mean, it was natural, we didn’t do it. And after the rain we have a pond in the back, which is fine, lasted two or three days, but it doesn’t go into the ditch.
DT: I see.
HG: And then you–then you don’t have to rectify. And then the other thing that we were interested is to vegetate the–the slopes of the Bayou instead of concreting it because that slows–when you concrete the Bayou and straighten it up, it speeds up the runoff, and produces floods downstream. But if you have vegetation, the roots of the plants will let the water be absorbed into the soil, and hold it.
DR: Well, at the end of 1970 or 1971, Bill Elliott created that Flood Control Task Force, and were you involved with that–or not? I know that’s during the time you were on the committee.
HG: Was my name–I mean, I don’t know, I was on some committees.
DR: You weren’t …
HG: I don’t remember whether–you know, I–oh, the other thing that we did, we went to a lot of public hearings, and testified at public hearings, and I did that several times.
DR: O.K. Plus, during the late ’60’s was the–the Citizens Who Care, with Terry Hershey, Mrs. Hobby, …
HG: Um-hmm.
DR: –the Cullinan sisters again, and you as well. We started to create an environmental organization which turned …
HG: Environmental what?
DR: –environmental organization which was the Houston Area Forum, which kind of got taken over by the Chamber of Commerce.
HG: Now I wasn’t–the Houston–I–I wasn’t involved in that.
DR: Yeah, now …
HG: The Citizens Who Care were very helpful because that’s how I met Mary Cravens. And–actually I knew her also from Smith–you know, I went to Smith–and I knew her from Smith Alumni, too. But anyway–you know, became, and–and also–I mean, Margaret Wray.
DT: Right.
HG: And, they were both there, so–and, you know, that’s–she was very helpful in the …
DT: And she–what sort of work would the Citizens Who Care do? Was it a sort of discussion group or …
HG: Yeah. They would have speakers on different topics and then they would write letters.
DT: And mostly environmental or other topics?
HG: Yeah, mostly environmental. Yeah, …
DT: Right.
HG: –something to do with–either that or–or city planning or–you know, preservation of historic buildings. Maybe that was a topic. And zoning was a topic. You know, at the time zoning was an issue because zoning was considered by the conservatives as being the first step towards world government.
DT: Start small, I guess. Very small.
HG: [Laughs.]
DT: Yeah. Well, that’s something that we were curious about–talking about earlier, David and myself. The different veins or sorts of conservation – there’s conservation and there’s environmentalism and there’s preservation efforts.
HG: And we’re not …
DT: Which–which do you find yourself most affiliated with?
HG: Well, you know something, what is–what this is really evolved into–the first thing it started was just aesthetics, you know, preserving. And then it was ecology, and now it’s sustaining life. You know, making sustainable environment.
DT: Well, do you think this is mostly a semantic kind of issue …
HG: No, it’s–it’s more than that.
DT: –or do you think that the issues really have changed?
HG: No, because, you know, when I first met Mr. Vines, and we said we want to preserve this bayou because it’s beautiful, he says, “No, you want to preserve it so that people can use it and learn from it. Make it an education center.”
DT: It’s very utilitarian.
HG: Yeah. I mean, right away–you know, if you want to go to beautiful places, you don’t need ’em in the city, you go out–but this is close to the city and people will come and use it and this is where you will make–make it an environmental education center.
DT: And not to set it off as a preserve or sanctuary.
HG: Yeah. Yeah.
DT: And, you know, where do you fall down on that one? What do you think would’ve been the best use of Armand Bayou?
HG: No, I think it’s fine but, you know, I still–you know something, I haven’t been down for several years, I just don’t have the time, I’ve been so busy here. And, so I haven’t really enjoyed it as much–you know. And when I went down, they said it was–well, we used to go down, you know, on hikes also but there was always something to do when I went down, you know? Would take somebody on a tour and–whatever. Well, yeah, I mean, I enjoy the beauty of it. That’s part of it, that’s–you know, I still like the mountains. We went last summer, my son and I. After my husband died, my son and I went to–took his ashes to the Rocky Mountain National Park. Liked that.
DT: Estes Park in …
HG: Yeah.
DT: –into the park?
HG: Yeah. And …
DT: Well, that’s something I’m always curious about. It seems like many people have a special spot that is a place of–of great beauty or–or it means a lot to them for some other reason. Are there places like that that …
HG: Well, for me it’s always the mountains, I love the mountains. You know.
DT: Like you had in your childhood, I guess.
HG: What’d you say?
DT: Like–as you had in your childhood.
HG: Yeah, yeah.
DT: You were talking about going hiking in the mountains.
HG: Yeah, yeah.
DT: Couldn’t find any here in Houston.
HG: [Laughs.]
DR: Not here.
DT: No.
HG: Yeah.
DT: The Pike’s Peak, Long’s Peak, those areas in …
HG: Um-hmm. Yeah.
DT: –the Rocky Mountain National Park?
HG: Yeah. Well, Long’s Peak–I’ve been on top of Long’s Peak when we were first married and I’ll never go up there again. [Laughs.]
DT: Well, a little …
HG: We went up on the cables and it was–oh, it was very scary for me.
DT: Right.
HG: They don’t do that anymore. They closed the cables, you know?
DT: They did?
HG: Yeah, they–they don’t let people go up on the cables anymore.
DT: I didn’t know that. Something else I’m curious about: you mentioned your son. Had–have many of your concerns sort of passed on to his generation?
HG: Well, he’s–yes, actually, because, you know, when I was little–when he was little and he was–play out in the back yard and I saw an earth worm, I wouldn’t pick up an earth worm. Let’s see who can catch an earth worm, see what it feels like, pick it up, you know. I was–[laughs], …
DT: [Laughs.]
HG: And–and then he took it–he was in Boy Scouts and he was working on leaves, a–you know, nature badge and leaf badge, and then he was doing–he got interested in violets, and he went to Rice University and he got a book on violets and they were–a whole thick book of nothing but violets. And he was trying to figure out which one is his, you know, and all that when he was a little kid. Anyway, he–he’s a botanist.
DT: Oh, he is?
HG: Yeah.
DT: He is. So, see, he will carry on.
HG: He’s a–he’s an assistant curator of the–of the herbarium at the University of Alabama. He went to U.T.
DT: I see.
HG: I mean–actually went to Grinnell but he worked at U.T. in graduate school.
DT: Well, when you–when you talk to him, do you ever have sort of discussions about what issues were for your generation and what are issues for his in environmental terms? I mean, what …
HG: Yeah.
DT: –are the fights that you fought similar to the ones that he fights or are they quite different?
HG: He’s not that much of a fighter. He’s–he does his–his plants and then he goes folk-dancing and–and plays the–cabals, you know, *** Vulcan instrument.
DT: I see.
HG: So he’s–he doesn’t–he’s not a fighter for the environment like I am. You know, he–I think he is in a way, in–at heart, but he doesn’t go out to do these projects.
DT: Well, everybody has their niche.
HG: Yeah.
DT: Aad it sounds like he’s more sort of an analytical sort of person and–he appreciates it if he’s not maybe as political or …
HG: Yeah. Well, he would spend hours looking at a little snail when he was little, you know. I mean–could always let him loose in the yard and–and he was busy.
DT: You were talking about Friendswood Development Corporation and then when you were working on the Nature Center here and on the playground, your opponents would–would try and do something to really–just really make you mad and you just ignored them. Why did you take that route instead of doing–being more of a–what could be considered a radical reaction to them, like doing either a protest march or getting a massive mail campaign or–debating …
HG: I don’t know, it’s not my way. You know, Frank Hokesh, the guy that ***, he was combative and he was, you know, quite aggressive in language, when he wrote letters they were–and, I just kind of didn’t want him to be part of the Armand Bayou because–because–I think we got the support because we were not combative, you know. So I–I didn’t invite him to things after while. I mean, in a way he was–I don’t know. I mean, we worked together because when he wrote–when I wrote a letter I’d send him a copy of the letter, then he wrote another letter, he sent me–so that we would know what we were doing. And he worked on–on a lot of things that–you know, especially with the engineers he–he did that. But I didn’t–he would antagonize Friendswood, he really would. And then they wouldn’t–they–you know, we were polite. [Laughs.] We just sat there and asked them, you know. “We would like to buy it and we’d–we’re gonna raise money. We’re not gonna condemn it, you know, and everything.”
DR: ***, you had said that some people were calling up and threatening to–to kill the trees around here when you were planning for the park here in Bellaire. That was–did you consider that just a–a small minority of people that had their own specific interest, or do you think that reflected on the–the average person?
HG: Well, it was–it wasn’t a minority because it was the people–and you know something, it’s–some of it is still hanging around, because it was the–the–the Chamber of Commerce, the people who–there was a–actually, Bellaire had–was divided on the issue of development along the Loop, and there was a–a recall because the Council–on–on Zoning, on–let’s see, the–yeah, the–I think the recall was one–wanting to build town houses in town. And then there was this lawsuit against the developer of–I can’t remember his name–who wanted to build, like, another Greenway Plaza where Marion High School is, you know? And so the residents filed and we were party to that suit–filed and we won it. It went to the State Supreme Court, over spot zoning. I mean, he was asking this–that was the issue. He was asking for special privileges to build the high-rises–that was against the zoning.
DT: Well, that was, you know, my …
HG: And you know, so then the city was divided between the people who wanted development and the people who wanted this to be a residential community. And–and the councils change, you know, so it’s kind of 50-50. It’s close–you know.
DT: Well, did–did you get involved in any political campaigns to promote one community or one council?
HG: Yeah, I was in the residents–worked for the residents, yeah.
DT: And you worked with Bill Elliott? I think you tried to call him?
HG: Oh, in–let’s see, in county?
DT: Uh-huh.
HG: Well, no, you know, this was local politics. In–on the–on the political scene I don’t feel that my effort–my effort is too diluted when I work on national campaigns, you know. It’s like a drop in the bucket what I do.
DT: Right.
HG: So I get more involved in local things because then it makes a difference.
DT: Um-hmm.
HG: And so here we were working for the–keeping Bellaire a residential community. I worked for the precinct, I worked for the Democratic–chairman for the precinct now–and go to precinct conventions.
DT: Is that the sort of advice that you would give to other people who …
HG: No.
DT: –wanted to change things to work locally?
HG: No, I wouldn’t give advice. I mean, we need people to work nationally, too.
DT: Sure.
DR: If you were to go out and just grab the first ten people off the street and talk to them about the environment and how they–how they felt, do you–how–how big of a change or–would there be, you know, from–between–to today and 30 years ago? Would they be–do you think they’ve become more receptive in Houston or it’s been about the same?
HG: Well, yeah, of course. I mean, people are much more interested now, you know. I mean, recycling has really taken off. We have a–we–recycling station in Bellaire, and almost everybody I know goes there, and does it and you have to carry it by hand, you have to go down there. It’s a very nice little pavilion, built in a trailer and nicely done. And–old people are concerned about saving energy–there’s lots more. I mean, it’s–it makes a difference.
DT: Do you think it’s more polarized or do you think it’s–more of a mainstream thing now as well? I mean, it seems like if this happened …
HG: Well, I tell you what–I think what is one of the problems that isn’t understood yet is the population control, because we cannot–the world cannot sustain a continuously growing population. I mean, that’s–you know, one time I heard something, that there’s a balance between animals and plants, and there’s only that much that this–the planet can support in terms of how many animals or how many plants. So if we–the more people there are the fewer animals there will be–you know, because the total is limited. So–and we’re using up resources and, you know, the other thing is that the deserts–some of the deserts in the world were just created by over-irrigation and over-grazing and over–over-use, over-use.
DT: Um-hmm.
HG: So the planet is not gonna–can’t support–continuously growing population. And that’s something that’s–people don’t realize, so I support the Planned Parenthood.
DT: Um-hmm. But I guess that is a touchy issue because a lot of …
HG: Yeah.
DT: –people feel like that’s a personal decision.
HG: Yeah.
DT: But do you think that for more people now than, say, 30 years ago, environmentalism is something that’s invested in them personally or they think it’s a political campaign or a special interest?
HG: [Pause.] Well, I think more people understand it. Whether more people’ll do something about it, I don’t know. You know, I mean, there’s a balance between being able to live–but, you know, when we lived in Holland, things were much simpler somehow. They were not–many people didn’t–you didn’t have that many choices when you went shopping. I think that’s something that bothers me is–is the–the tremendous waste of materials that we buy, the packaging and–and the–you don’t need to have a new dress all the time and you don’t need to have so many choices of everything. I mean, the stores are packed full, and that’s–all using energy and ***.
DT: For the one thing that you select …
HG: Yeah.
DT: –off the shelf there’re 15 that you leave behind that are probably identical.
HG: Yeah, yeah. And–and you know, something else–something else is the air pollution, and I didn’t realize how bad it is, but last time when I came–when I came home from Colorado, it was a clear day, and when we approached Houston, for miles and miles and miles it was like a veil over Houston, you know, and when you land and you look at the sky it’s perfectly blue. You don’t see anything from the ground, but from the air it was just …
DT: Well, actually that’s something that I’m curious about. When you–you moved here in the late ’40’s?
HG: We came to Houston in ’49. Or ’48, I don’t know, let’s see. I can’t remember whether it was ’48 or ’49. We were married in ’48 and I think it was ’48.
DT: Can you just recall how the landscape–how this changed in Houston, you know, how it has grown and–and moved?
HG: Yeah, well, the–there were vacant–lots of vacant land in Bellaire, we–well, where we built the house. There were some little houses and that part of the street wasn’t paved. And the south *** was there, and then further south there were no houses and, you know, past mile and there wasn’t anything but rice fields.
DT: Rice fields.
HG: Yeah.
DT: And then at–at Armand Bayou, what was that whole area like before NASA, and–and Clear Lake City were built up?
HG: Yeah, well, Clear Lake City was there already, but not–you know, not to the extent that it is now. They’ve built a lot more–a lot newer houses –a lot more newer houses.
DT: Right.
HG: And Bayport wasn’t there, that industrial district wasn’t there. IT was just starting. I think when we were going to Armand Bayou it was just beginning.
DT: Are there–are there any landmarks that–that have changed, I mean, that–you sort of see as kind of litmus tests for how Houston has grown?
HG: Well, you know, one thing was the subsidence is definitely a landmark because when we started to go there, there was a bend–there’s a bend in the Bayou and there were some trees in the middle. Well, it’s all gone. You know?
DT: All gone.
HG: So we can see–I mean, the subsidence was very obvious.
DT: I see.
HG: And I gave you a picture on that, too, some–in the packets. I gave you–yeah.
DT: Well, I look forward to looking at all these materials and …
HG: Yeah. Well, I mean, it’s–some of it may be repetitious because I just didn’t have time to read everything I was giving you. So, …
DT: Oh, this is very generous of you and I–I mean, …
HG: So, …
DT: –I can’t wait to–to look at this.
HG: Anyway–but anyway, do you have–let’s see, we didn’t get to the Nature Center, we didn’t finish talking about that, I think. We got to the house, we got–we started to have–well, we worked on the house, you know. We did all that and I’ll–I’ll show that to you. But then we started right away to set up the Nature Center. And my husband made all the discovery boxes that’re …
DT: Um-hmm.
HG: –upstairs, you know, and we started to have volunteers teach summer classes. And we had bird walks and we had owl prowls, and–most of it was outside, and then finally we couldn’t bring people in, we couldn’t–we didn’t have an occupancy permit until we had a fire escape. So the city gave us permission to have open house once a month. And at those open houses we were recruiting volunteers, ’cause we needed volunteers to run the–the Nature Center. So the first year it was done, then we had one staff person and then it grew, and every year we had more and we did school programs and–and now we’re just absolutely flooded. We have school programs in–every day, and we have–we take exhibits that are finished here–we take them and set ’em up in the schools and we do programs at schools. And, we’re publishing a book because everybody wants–our method is–is very unique, too, because we let the children make their own discoveries. They–they’re assigned this. When they come over here, they, you know, sit in the–on the floor in a circle or something like that and they say, “Now, we’re gonna be exploring the park today and we’re gonna be studying the behavior of squirrels,” for instance. And the kids have clipboards, and there’re pictures of squirrels doing different things and they go out and–there to observe them. And so every time they see something, they put a check mark and they create a bar graph. And then they say, “When we’re finished, when we come back, then we’re gonna compare our data, and–and we’re going to draw a–you know, joint graph for the whole class, and then you’re gonna be the only people in the world that know what the squirrels were doing in Russ Pittman Park on Thursday morning between 10 and 11 o’clock.” So they …
DT: Experts.
HG: –do original–you know, they are the expert and they learn how scientists get data. You know, that they don’t invent things, that they observe things, so they observe how pill bugs–whether they’re gonna–or what to find, they go into the shade or in the sun and which food they prefer better–you know, they do experiments, on a sometimes very elementary level. But they learn how to observe and look for themselves and learn things.
DT: And do you find that they get excited at times, though?
HG: They get terribly excited about the whole thing, you know. I mean, it just turns ’em on. And they–oh, they–they have–we have microscopes and they can, “Oh, isn’t–sea of ants crawling under the microscope,” and they show it to everybody, you know. Everything they see is they–see, and then from that we develop concepts and we show them how when you go out you observe things, you know, and they show them how to–how to get involved, and that leads to them appreciating nature and wanting to preserve and protect it, which is our overall goal. And so it all leads from there. Anyway, we find that teachers know very little about nature, know very little about science and don’t know how to teach it, you know. And so we give the teachers–we have kits that we give to the teachers so that they can continue their work when they go back to the schools. And we’re–we have got–we’ve made our presentations–a couple of my staff members would do a national meeting in St. Louis, and they found a publisher who’s gonna publish a book–who’s publishing a book on what we do here.
DT: That’s great, so, …
HG: That’s good.
DT: –you know, the next generation will understand more, you know.
HG: Yeah. And not only that, but we have schools–the Condit Elementary, for instance, got us to create a nature trail on their school grounds, and then we had teacher training for their teachers, so they can apply our method in their schools.
DT: That’s great!
HG: So we’re doing a lot of things. Anyway–you know.
DT: I see that I am running short on tape.
HG: Well, …
DT: And I wanted to ask you one thing before I …
HG: Yeah, I have some. You can have this if you like.
DT: But it’s a different kind of tape, unfortunately.
HG: Oh, it’s a different kind of tape. Yeah, O.K.
DT: Can you–I oughta just sort of give you an open-ended questioning ’cause we’ve covered a lot of ground talking about the Nature Discovery Center and before that, Armand Bayou and before that still, you were–it was Buffalo Bayou and Memorial Park. Can you tell us–is there some sort of vein that–that connects all these projects that you’ve worked on?
HG: [Pause.] Well, it’s preserving–I mean, park, preserving a natural area and education. Environmental education for children. Population. I think that’s sort of what I’ve been putting my effort into.
DT: And what’s next?
HG: No, I–next is just to set up an endowment fund so I can retire because …
DT: [Laughs.]
HG: –our budget now, it’s to–it’s–you know, we’re so successful …
DT: Right.
HG: –that we have six people on the staff and our budget is $240,000, even though we don’t pay them very much unfortunately, and–and I’m the one that’s raising most of the money. And it’s just–nobody likes to raise money. And, you know, we all–and so, we set up a permanent fund, which is now about $200,000, and–it needs to be at least a million, so that we can have–because I’m not gonna live forever.
DT: And fund-raising is hard.
HG: And–I know.
DT: –hard to sustain.
HG: I know. And, so that’s all–you know, that’s all I’m trying to do is to–to keep this place going.
DT: Well, congratulations.
HG: And then if I ever have the time, I will write a book about Armand Bayou but–I just haven’t had time. You know something, since you–before you called me, it’s been years since I even looked at these notes, and I forgot–a lot of the things that I talked about, I forgot. Let’s see if I–I made some notes and let’s see if I covered them. Oh, yeah, I didn’t talk about something else. At Armand Bayou–Texas Parks and Wildlife was looking for sites for–possible sites for regional parks. So we took them to Armand Bayou to look, and they said, “Well, it has to be at least 3,000–three or four thousand acres for us to be interested and to be sustainable.” And this is something else we found out, that you can’t keep animals in little pieces, you know. They need to interbreed.
DT: True.
HG: And they need–have–you know, they have a territory that they need, so little bit seedlet there doesn’t–doesn’t support them. And so they needed three or 4,000 acres, so that’s how the figure 3,000 acres came about, …
DT: I see.
HG: –what we needed for …
[Tape 3 of three, Side A.]
HG: It needs to be at least a million so that we can have–because I’m not gonna live forever.
DT: And, you know, fund-raising is hard …
HG: –what we needed for Armand Bayou. And–and then the other thing I didn’t tell you is that on the hikes–when we had public hikes, we always gave everybody a sheet–well, as far as communication and the publicity is concerned–that I was writing continuously. I mean, every time there had to be–every month there had to be a report for the Sierra Club and the Audubon had to have an update on everything that was going on, and the papers had to have news releases. And then we had to have a sheet–for every hike, we had a sheet with the update of what was going on–something interesting, like a little news sheet–and names and addresses of all the public officials that needed to hear from them. And that was everybody who came on the hike. I said, “We don’t charge for the hike but we expect you to write letters.”
DT: Very good. Well, what is your–your view of Sierra and Audubon and sort of the more established environmental groups? How have they figured into your work?
HG: Into this? Well, they were–they were all–you know, everybody was very helpful on the–on the Armand Bayou. And …
DR: You said that you raised about–a little less than $500,000 for Armand Bayou from private citizens and groups like that?
HG: Yeah.
DR: What do you think was their main idea of–why did they give the money? Was it …
HG: Well, we painted a beautiful picture, [laughs], you know. We showed them that this was an important natural area and needs to be preserved and that a few parks in the Bellaire–Harris County doesn’t have enough parks and people need a place to go and–you know, and all that.
DT: And you wrote a book that …
HG: Well, I didn’t write it. [Laughs.]
DT: Oh.
HG: Liz Carpenter wrote that. Anyway–you have more tape or whatever–yeah, yeah.
DT: Well, I’m–I’m just out.
HG: Yeah, O.K.
DT: I did want to thank you, ***.
HG: Well, what I would like to–if you have a minute, I’d like to show you around and show you the park. Can we do that?
DT: If that’s all right with you.
DR: Sure.
HG: Sure.
DT: It’d be great for us.
HG: Yeah. O.K.
CR: O.K., thank you.
DT: Thank you very much.
HG: O.K. O.K.
DT: This is ending our interview of Hana Ginzbarg on January 22, 1997. And I want to thank Mrs. Ginzbarg and also David Radcliffe for his–helping me out.
DR: Sure.
End of Interview with Hana Ginzbarg