Conservation History Association of Texas
Texas Legacy Project
Oral History Interview
Nature Conservancy in Texas

Interviewee: Karen Hixon
Date: June 6, 2022
Site: San Antonio, Texas
Reels: 3694-3699
Executive Producer: Lydia Saldana
Producer: Jeff Weigel
Field Producer / Chief Interviewer: Lee Smith
Videographer: Curtis Craven
Writer / Editor: Ron Kabele
Transcriber: David Todd / Trint
Item: Hixon_Karen_NCItem11_SanAntonioTX_20220606_Reel3694-3699_Audio.mp3

[Numbers refer to the interview recording’s time code.]

Lee Smith [00:00:16] So where did you grow up?

Karen Hixon [00:00:18] I grew up in Fort Worth. I am a native Texan.

Lee Smith [00:00:22] And how does Fort Worth? I mean, did you mess around in nature up there, or were you kind of an urban kid?

Karen Hixon [00:00:35] To a certain degree. Well, I’m probably more urban. I spent my early years riding, excuse me, riding horses. And one of the stables was was country. And, you know, we’d go get dumped off on a Saturday morning. And would have spent the night if we’d been able to, but, you know, hung out on the horses or off the horses and just running around outside.

Karen Hixon [00:00:55] So. And I never and my father was not a hunter or a fisherman, so I never did very much of that. What little fishing I did, I enjoyed.

Karen Hixon [00:01:06] Just as an aside, my grandfather was one of those responsible for Big Bend National Park, so I figured there must be some genetics here somewhere.

Lee Smith [00:01:17] So was there any aspect of your early life? Childhood? I mean, you mentioned horseback riding. Was there anything else in your early life that sparked an interest in the outdoors?

Karen Hixon [00:01:31] Just loved to be outside. And my mother, excuse me, my mother was a gardener, had a fabulous rock garden. And we all used to play and climb all over that.

Karen Hixon [00:01:39] And then there was actually, when I was growing up, a working dairy farm down the street that we used to, my across-the-street neighbor and I, used to go down there all the time and play in the hay barn. And there was one horse in a paddock and we used to get on there and ride around bareback and never, of course thought about snakes or anything like that. But you know, thankfully never found any either.

Lee Smith [00:02:03] Was there anything special in the garden?

Karen Hixon [00:02:06] Well, my mother’s garden in Fort Worth was flowers. And there wasn’t. She transitioned to vegetables later in life. But no, it was just it was a fabulous rock garden that you could climb all over. And we did.

Lee Smith [00:02:25] So were there butterflies and stuff moving through there?

Karen Hixon [00:02:27] Yeah, there were. And birds. And my younger brother raised finches. He had an aviary with finches at the back for a while. And, you know, just I think I always was slightly interested in birds, but as I got older, was more just nice to know what’s around you, be it plants or birds or whatever it is.

Lee Smith [00:02:46] So how did you, what was your first involvement in conservation work?

Karen Hixon [00:02:53] Well, most likely the first real thing was the Nature Conservancy in San Antonio, and because of my husband, Tim Hixon. And that happened very soon after we were married. And the first project obviously was Clymer Meadow.

Karen Hixon [00:03:10] But we also, and this was after Clymer, but the Hixon family bought a ranch in Idaho in 1983, which is on the Snake River. And it’s run, it’s a working cattle operation also run off horseback.

Karen Hixon [00:03:29] And so we spent every summer up there playing cowboy, which was my every childhood dream come true, as well as for Tim, who rode with the cowboys every day. I didn’t get to do it quite so much, but it’s just, and we still have it. It’s a beautiful, beautiful place. And one gets out and, you know, unfortunately no real western rivers on it, but lots of nice small creeks and streams and stuff.

Karen Hixon [00:03:52] And that is, you know, I just. I just like to be outside. What can I say?

Lee Smith [00:04:03] So how did Tim get involved with the Nature Conservancy? Like you said, he started, then you went off?

Karen Hixon [00:04:11] Right. Well, his involvement with conservation started before that. I mean, he was, through his whole life, a hunter and a fisherman. And as we often discussed, there would be no conservation without hunters and fishermen. And he had made several trips to Africa before we were married and was one of the founders of the African Wildlife Federation. And he just firmly believed that you needed to take care of things and leave them better than the way he found them.

Karen Hixon [00:04:41] So and then I’m not sure how he and Andy Sansom actually first met, but it was when the first office was in San Antonio, and I guess it was over the the parlor. And then we, actually the first time I met Andy was on a float trip on the Snake at the Birds of Prey Wildlife Area. And there was a guy named Spencer Beebe who worked for the Nature Conservancy at the time as well.

Karen Hixon [00:05:10] And we floated the Snake and saw lots of wonderful birds and wildlife and had a, actually Spencer’s cousin, who was a geologist, was with us as well to see all that wonderful columnar basalt that goes the entire length up and down, you know, the canyon. It’s a spectacular canyon. But that particular part of it is not the most spectacular part, but it’s still a pretty part.

Karen Hixon [00:05:32] So and then, I don’t know, Tim got to be friends with Andy and the rest is history, as they say.

Lee Smith [00:05:40] So what was his philosophy regarding conservation?

Karen Hixon [00:05:47] Excuse me. I don’t. All right.

Karen Hixon [00:05:53] It would be hard to say. I mean, he took every opportunity to be involved wherever he could. And he was raised, as was I, that if you were blessed with the world’s good, you’re supposed to give them back. And, you know, this was his way of doing it in many ways.

Karen Hixon [00:06:09] And he just loved, again, he he loved the out-of-doors. He grew up in Jacksonville, Florida, on the St. John’s River. And when school was out, they took their shoes off and they played in the river and caught snakes and frogs and fish. And that was his his young years. And it just was embedded in his mind.

Lee Smith [00:06:28] Wasn’t he big on private/public partnerships?

Lee Smith [00:06:34] Yes. Well, I mean, he moved to Texas in ’62. And obviously most of Texas land is still privately owned. But he was very much in favor of making sure that everybody, kids especially, get out on the land. So whatever needs to be done for for doing that. But in a lot of these projects, and especially the early projects with the Conservancy, it had to be a public/private partnership because it wasn’t going to get done otherwise.

Karen Hixon [00:06:59] So how did he cultivate? How did he work to get those, to recruit people, I guess?

Karen Hixon [00:07:07] Well, he knew everybody. And he was he loved a good confrontation. So he was never afraid to take somebody on.

Karen Hixon [00:07:18] And in fact, one of the best ones, which jumps way ahead. But it was when Texas Wildlife Association was first set up. And many of those involved, including most who have come 180 degrees, but David Langford and Stevie Lewis and some of the others, they’d looked at the Conservancy and things they were doing as a pass-through organization. Land was going to the feds. They weren’t doing, you know, what Texas Wildlife Association wanted to do.

Karen Hixon [00:07:56] And Tim got them all in a room and sat them down and said, “Guys, you know you’re wrong.” And explained everything to them, what his beliefs were and how it was. And they all came out with a different point of view. It took a while, obviously, to get them working, but you look at what they’re all doing now. It worked.

Karen Hixon [00:08:17] Proof is in the pudding.

Lee Smith [00:08:20] And now they’re eating it.

Karen Hixon [00:08:21] Yes, they are.

Lee Smith [00:08:25] With large spoons.

Lee Smith [00:08:30] Excuse me. So both of y’all were were you? And so you didn’t have much hunting and fishing?

Karen Hixon [00:08:36] No, I had no background in hunting and fishing when we were married. But early on, I wasn’t going to get left at home. So I went and Tim liked to tell people. And that’s true. In 44 years of marriage, we only had two trips that didn’t involve hunting or fishing.

Lee Smith [00:08:51] And but y’all are also were champions of non-game species.

Karen Hixon [00:08:57] Yes.

Lee Smith [00:08:57] As well. And there’s this conception, you know, about people who go on safari and people that are big hunters, that there’s this schism.

Karen Hixon [00:09:08] Exactly.

Lee Smith [00:09:09] Between game and non-game. How did, how did y’all bridge that?

Karen Hixon [00:09:15] Well, you know, that’s what I would tell friends. I went to high school on the West Coast and to college on the East Coast and had lots of very liberal friends who didn’t understand hunting or fishing. And when you would talk about animals, they’d go, “Oh, I’m a member of PETA.” And I’d go, “Hmm. You know what?” Would promptly tell them, by my hunting license, I was doing more for game than they would ever begin to do by being a member of whatever other organization they were.

Karen Hixon [00:09:45] But I loved to birdwatch. But I also like to shoot quail and dove, you know. And you know, it just it doesn’t bother me. It doesn’t it doesn’t occur to me that that there is a difference.

Karen Hixon [00:09:57] I mean, obviously growing up, I never had a BB gun. My brothers and cousins and people shot birds that they shouldn’t have shot. But they were little boys. And actually, my grandson, I will even say, has probably shot a few he shouldn’t have shot.

Karen Hixon [00:10:15] But anyway, you know, it just never occurred to us that it wasn’t allowed and that there were certain, you know, obviously certain animals that you hunt but others that need to be saved.

Karen Hixon [00:10:29] And Tim was involved with a group called Game Conservation International, which had a kind of convention in San Antonio every other year, starting in the mid ’70s. And that went through probably the ’90s, I think it was. It should be what the Dallas Safari Club is today. You know, that was the way it was going.

Karen Hixon [00:10:49] But it was always in the off-hunting season in Africa and all the African hunters would come and the artists would come. And he got to know lots of people, especially the wildlife artists. And he knew a lot of the white hunters, the professional hunters anyway. So it just, I don’t know, it’s just sort of a natural evolution of how things should be.

Lee Smith [00:11:09] Well, when you’re hunting, you know, the the trophy animal isn’t sitting in front of you all the time.

Karen Hixon [00:11:15] No.

Lee Smith [00:11:16] There’s a lot of down time. When.

Karen Hixon [00:11:20] Well, exactly. I mean, Tim, he loved sitting in a deer blind in south Texas, but even around, we would hang bird feeders around his deer blind because so much of the time you’re sitting there not seeing much of anything except for javelina eating your corn and, you know, a few other odd things. But watching the cardinals and the green jays and everything come in, so.

Lee Smith [00:11:46] So what what was kind of y’all’s favorite thing to do? You said you went on only two vacations that didn’t involve hunting or fishing. Was there a particular type of fishing? Was there a particular place?

Karen Hixon [00:11:59] Yeah, I was. Well, fishing, mostly because, I mean, I was only a bird hunter, never a big game hunter. But we, early days, we fished a lot in Alaska and it was all, well, I started out with a spinning rod and I transitioned to a fly rod. And that’s all I’ve ever used since.

Karen Hixon [00:12:14] But early days in Alaska were fabulous because that was in like ’75 to ’85 and there weren’t nearly the number of people, happily, that there are now and the pressure on the rivers wasn’t as great. The bears had a healthier respect for people wandering around.

Karen Hixon [00:12:36] But those were great trips we had. And when we actually took a family trip and took our two boys, whenn our youngest, Brian, was only eight. And we went with some friends and took a whole camp and trying to find full waders for an eight year old was challenging at best.

Karen Hixon [00:12:54] But anyway, well, I think our favorite place for, we went to Argentina fishing every year for almost 20 years and it was fabulous. I love it. It’s a gorgeous country. We made lots of good friends and would go for two or three weeks.

Karen Hixon [00:13:08] We would fish trout in Patagonia and then go to Tierra del Fuego for they have big sea run brown that are like steelhead. They go out in the ocean, but they come in, they’re anadromous and then come back in. And I think the record on the river now is like 40 pounds or something.

Karen Hixon [00:13:28] But really beautiful country, nice people and just fun times.

Lee Smith [00:13:34] So moving now to blackland prairies. Why is that region, why is protection of blackland prairies important?

Karen Hixon [00:13:46] I remember vividly at the time knowing little or nothing about it when we went to Clymer for the first time or for the dedication, I guess, even before that. But, you know, I never realized the extent to which, you know, the area which it had covered before there was the last 300 acres or whatever it was that was preserved and how it had changed and what had happened. So I mean, and what it did to the landscape. And those little pieces – I would say that was the biggest piece you could put together that still existed at that point in time.

Karen Hixon [00:14:20] And so to to come to some understanding of how much had been lost was made a real impact on me. And so to do what we could to help keep the little that was still there was important.

Lee Smith [00:14:42] So how did the Clymer Preserve come about?

Karen Hixon [00:14:46] You know, I honestly don’t know. I got in on the tail end of that, and it was one of the first projects that the Nature Conservancy in Texas did. And I think it just, you know, was being in the right place at the right time. It was what came up and what was available, and we jumped on it.

Lee Smith [00:15:05] Yeah, most people would drive by, you know, a flat grassland and think, well, that’s a great place for a subdivision.

Karen Hixon [00:15:11] Still do.

Lee Smith [00:15:15] Or even have grass there.

Karen Hixon [00:15:19] They wouldn’t be able to differentiate between that grass and everything, or they wouldn’t take the time to look to see what the difference was – the flowers that were growing, or the weeds that were growing, everything like that stuff, you know.

Karen Hixon [00:15:29] And even, you know, I mean, God bless Lady Bird Johnson, you know, we wouldn’t have the wildflowers and things that we do were not for her, you know. But then to have a whole area where they were just still there and, you know, had never been plowed up or turned over was is really quite extraordinary.

Lee Smith [00:15:46] And the biodiversity that those sites offer, right?

Karen Hixon [00:15:52] Yeah. I mean, because now I mean, I drive back and forth between Fort Worth and San Antonio all the time and usually go up 281 just because it’s a prettier drive.

Karen Hixon [00:16:02] But once you get past the Hill Country, not just I mean, the acres and acres and acres of just solid cedar and stuff and the monocultures or where they’ve just cleared it out and it’s all grass. It’s it’s it’s taken us a long time to learn.

Lee Smith [00:16:22] So how does something like Clymer … you talk about taking us a long time to learn. How does a place like Clymer provide an opportunity for us to to learn?

Karen Hixon [00:16:40] Well, you know, as I say it was the first of obviously many stellar projects that have have gone on. But. It’s like, I mean, we fight this battle continually and continuously that, you know, if you want this generation or any of the next ones to protect something, you have to teach them about it.

Karen Hixon [00:17:01] And to have a place like Clymer that’s available for schoolkids and other people to go out to, they can see it and touch it and learn it and hopefully then appreciate it and want to keep it.

Lee Smith [00:17:12] And perhaps inform future decisions of that generation.

Karen Hixon [00:17:17] Absolutely. Absolutely. No, it’s, you know, we just have to keep working on it.

Lee Smith [00:17:30] And then this kind of gets it. So what are the challenges in protecting that kind of, that kind of spot? We talked about the mindset that people look at it and see one. But so tell me…

Karen Hixon [00:17:48] You know, there are always people in all the projects we’ve been involved in, there are always neighbors and a grassroots group on the ground that has known about it forever. They live there or they have a property adjacent to it, and they want to make sure that it doesn’t get ruined or have a development built on it or something like that. And obviously more and more in this day and time than even then.

Lee Smith [00:18:13] It’s almost like a a vision, a short-term and a long-term vision I kind of think of in terms of the challenges of.

Karen Hixon [00:18:27] Well, no, I think that’s that’s absolutely true. And I, I equate it more with what’s going on around us now, especially in the Hill Country, in Boerne and New Braunfels and those places that people are moving here in droves because it’s the way it is.

Karen Hixon [00:18:43] But the more that come, the quicker it changes. And they don’t … trying to make them understand you’ve got to preserve what it was that brought them here in the first place.

Karen Hixon [00:18:58] Texas law needs to be changed for the counties so that the counties can do something about their land that they are not able to do at this point in time. Cities are able to do it.

Karen Hixon [00:19:06] And I get so tired of all of our mayors and even our county commissioners talking out of both sides of their mouth about we got to preserve our water. But then you turn around and they’re building on top of the recharge zone yet again.

Karen Hixon [00:19:21] And, you know, I mean, I understand commerce and all of that kind of stuff, but there’s got to be a balance. You know, San Antonio has done a better job than most places or many places, but there’s still much that needs to be done.

Karen Hixon [00:19:34] But as you said, I mean, it’s like. Well, with Clymer, Government Canyon, Bracken Cave, Honey Creek that we’re working on right now. There are certain things, certain places that you just have to save. I mean, you know, that’s. There’s no option.

Karen Hixon [00:19:55] When we were working on Bracken, it was and this was the last piece of property that was supposed to be developed. There were 3600 homes on 1500 acres or whatever it was, right under the flight path of the bats at night. Maybe bats were going to be falling on people’s patios and the bats were going to lose.

Lee Smith [00:20:19] So back to prairies. Why have they been overlooked?

Karen Hixon [00:20:23] Because they’re in the way. They were looked at by the wrong people. And and there were I mean, they covered so much of the state, obviously. But as all the cities grow and sprawl, they’re in the way.

Karen Hixon [00:20:40] And people didn’t appreciate what they were, didn’t know enough about them. And by the time they did, there was so little left, you got to preserve what you can.

Karen Hixon [00:20:50] Yeah. Well, Mickey Burleson I knew when I was in a, obviously she was involved with the Conservancy and the Parks and Wildlife Commission, but a great mentor. And, you know, truly, she and her husband built their own prairie. I mean, what’s not to say?

Karen Hixon [00:21:05] And I talked to her actually not too long ago because there’s a young artist named James Prosek who is working on a project at Clymer, but he wanted to interview Mickey as well, just because he’s he’s into grasslands and prairies and wants to know as much as he can. So I told him, go talk to Mickey because she knows more than anybody I know.

Lee Smith [00:21:31] Why do you think she was interested in prairies?

Karen Hixon [00:21:34] You know, I don’t know. I never, never asked her. I mean, obviously, she was interested in the outdoors as much as anything. But just from where they were like, I don’t remember if they had, I know they had a ranch and it may have been it was it just grew out of that of putting it back the way it was before. I think probably is, which a lot of people have done. And I mean, look what David Bamberger did with Selah. We’ve we’ve done a couple 100 acres at our ranch in Cotulla trying to get native grasses and stuff back, working with Caesar Kleberg. So it’s it’s a lot of work, but well worth the effort. I mean, you increase your wildlife and birds.

Lee Smith [00:22:14] Government Canyon. How did that happen?

Karen Hixon [00:22:19] Well, I wasn’t actively involved but got to hear about it at home. It was when Tim was on the Parks and Wildlife Commission, and at that point in time, the state had put a moratorium on buying any new land, period. But this, the original section of it was being was held by the RTC at the time, and Tim just made a case for it with the Commission that, you know, you have got to … this is a piece of property has got to be saved, and you’ve got to do it. And he talked to the governor and the lieutenant governor and everybody he could talk to.

Karen Hixon [00:22:50] Thankfully, they got the Trust for Public Land involved. They were the best of partners at that time because, I mean, like the Conservancy, they had funds available that could be used then. I mean, obviously going through the Commission and the state, the money would come eventually, but it would take a while to get. So having good partners along the way.

Karen Hixon [00:23:09] And there was a tremendous grassroots effort of people around Government Canyon, and still are. I mean, those people that use it and give tours and things like that and love to have it, that wanted to see it protected.

Karen Hixon [00:23:21] But he just kept pushing and pushing and and finally got it done.

Karen Hixon [00:23:27] And then since then, obviously it’s been added on to and I forget what the present acreage is, but it’s ultimately as everything sprawls around it, it’ll be our Central Park.

Lee Smith [00:23:41] I was shooting there last night.

Karen Hixon [00:23:44] Were you?

Lee Smith [00:23:44] As a matter of fact, as well as the sprawl just down the road.

Speaker 2 [00:23:49] Well, the road getting into it is horrendous, just horrendous. But I took … actually there was an artist named Mark Dion who is contemporary. And does, he tries… well, I hate to say what he tries to do. As I see what he tries to do, is make the real world. He’s a collector. He collects bits and pieces of things and ends up doing cabinets which reflect where he’s been. And he came to Texas and he followed the route that actually Audubon was in Texas, so he followed the route of Audubon and two other people who had worked in Texas. And he was on the King Ranch. He was in West Texas, but he went out …

Karen Hixon [00:24:39] I took him out to Government Canyon and he, you know, picked up seed pods and rocks and took pictures. And he’s a birder as well. So did that.

Karen Hixon [00:24:48] But then put together this unbelievable, huge cabinet that’s at the Amon Carter Museum in Fort Worth of all these different things. And that’s his way of expressing, you know, history and how it has all come about.

Karen Hixon [00:25:03] But that was great. We had a great time that day. He was wandering. He wanted to pick up and pick more than we were allowed. I told him he wasn’t. But, you know, there were things like Mexican buckeye seed pods and things on the ground. And I said, “You can have a few of those, but you cannot dig up anything else or take other stuff.” So most of it was photographs as opposed to, you know, actual things from there but anyway, that was an interesting experience.

Lee Smith [00:25:39] So what is the importance of Government Canyon, and how does it fit in to greater San Antonio?

Karen Hixon [00:25:52] Well, it has protected a good chunk that wouldn’t have been protected otherwise. You know, there’s still, it gets used a lot. I know that for sure. There’s still a lot of people that have no idea that it’s there. Hopefully more and more people will use it. But it is, you know, Jeez, it’s in close to it. It’s it’s like Camp Bullis. You’ve got to have these places and these large expanses of land to protect a lot of these animals and have dark spaces.

Karen Hixon [00:26:19] And one of my favorite things at Government Canyon is, and I forget which trail it is, but to get up to the very top and as far as you can see, you don’t see any high wires. You don’t see any houses. You don’t see anything. And it’s like it always was. And, you know, hopefully it will stay that way.

Lee Smith [00:26:38] How does it fit in to what goes on below ground, with the watershed?

Karen Hixon [00:26:43] A lot of you know, it’s over the recharge zone, obviously. And I remember when one of the first times that it opened, the actual entrance was one of the areas when we had lots of water. It was flooded. I mean, there was a river running out to the front, you know.

Karen Hixon [00:27:01] But there are fabulous… the first trip, actually, I ever took out to Government Canyon, looking at it when it was first it was with Tim and we were with Terry and Jake Hershey. And we got to drive and go to a lot of places that you are not allowed to get to anymore. But there are wonderful sinkholes in places where you can watch the water go down into the aquifer.

Karen Hixon [00:27:24] And it’s, excuse me.

Karen Hixon [00:27:28] It’s just. It’s. We’ve saved a lot of the recharge zone, but there’s still so much more and it’s so important. I mean, say people give it a lot of lip service, but at the end of the day, they’re willing to sacrifice, they being the city, the county, SAWS, whoever you want to talk to.

Lee Smith [00:27:49] Now, the the nature center out there. Is that what it’s called, the “Nature Center”?

Karen Hixon [00:27:53] The “Visitor Center”.

Lee Smith [00:27:54] “Visitor Center”. Yeah. It’s not cinder blocks and air-conditioned. And how does the design of that visitor center, what’s the kind of the the strategy there?

Karen Hixon [00:28:10] Well, it was always and it was designed by Lake Flato architects here in San Antonio, and both Ted Flato and David Lake are very conservation, ecological minded – David probably a little bit more than Ted. But, you know, the intent always was that it would blend in to the surroundings. It was never intended to be an air-conditioned classroom or something. You know, it’s all open-air.

Karen Hixon [00:28:34] And the way it’s designed, it lends even when it’s really hot. I mean, you know, you’ve been out there. It’s it’s a wonderful place to be. There are obviously classrooms and offices that are air-conditioned that have to be. But it was always intended to, as I say, blend in to the surroundings and to look natural.

Lee Smith [00:28:52] Well, and the various elements there, whether it’s the rainwater catchment…

Karen Hixon [00:28:58] Right.

[00:28:58] Whether it’s the native plants, those are things that people that visit it can take back.

Karen Hixon [00:29:04] Right.

Karen Hixon [00:29:06] Well, that was one of the first because the, I forget, Lake Flato had designed the Wildflower Center, Lady Bird Wildflower Center or was that Overland? Might have been Overland.

Karen Hixon [00:29:18] Anyway whoever designed the Ladybird Wildflower Center, that was the first place that used a roof for rain catchment and for it to go into cisterns. And so that was they, they did copy that for Government Canyon to be able to save the water and get the water into cisterns to be able to use. So it’s all, everything was designed with a purpose.

Lee Smith [00:29:41] Did he, is this the Flato, is his wife, Katy?

Karen Hixon [00:29:45] Yes.

[00:29:45] We went to high school together.

Karen Hixon [00:29:46] Is that right?

Lee Smith [00:29:47] Katy Chadwick?

Karen Hixon [00:29:48] Yes.

Lee Smith [00:29:55] So you kind of mentioned some of the challenges with it initially getting done that the state had forbidden ownership or purchasing.

Karen Hixon [00:30:08] Yeah, it was purchase. They just put a moratorium on buying any more land.

Lee Smith [00:30:13] So what is, what do you think is the place of it? Some people think the government should not own land.

Karen Hixon [00:30:21] No, No.

Lee Smith [00:30:22] What is the place of government in that?

Karen Hixon [00:30:25] Well, the government certainly has a place. I mean, there have been times through the history of many not-for-profits, and Nature Conservancy being one in early days. A lot of the land that was purchased, they were a pass-through for it to go to a park or another agency or something like that just because they were nimble on their feet, had the availability and flexibility to get it and move it on.

Karen Hixon [00:30:48] And for some people that gave them a bit of a black eye because that’s the only thing they saw. They didn’t realize that what they were buying was important and needed to be added to those parks.

Karen Hixon [00:31:00] You know, whatever government entity it is, especially with the parks, they need to own it. I mean, it needs to be open to people and for everybody to be able to use it. And if it were public, I mean, if it were private, that wouldn’t happen. So they aren’t always the best stewards. But then everybody can improve.

Lee Smith [00:31:24] It’s like the Nature Conservancy doesn’t have the boots on the ground. They don’t have park rangers.

Karen Hixon [00:31:31] No.

Lee Smith [00:31:31] They don’t have the infrastructure. So government can provide.

Karen Hixon [00:31:36] Yeah.

Karen Hixon [00:31:37] Well, and the state, I mean, Texas Parks and Wildlife obviously is the gold standard across the country for wildlife departments. And, you know, our parks and I think they’re dependent on state funding, obviously, and have gotten behind the eight ball many times.

Karen Hixon [00:31:55] But with the addition of the Parks and Wildlife Foundation, they have been able to do tremendous things that we, you know, Powderhorn Ranch that wouldn’t have happened without Parks and Wildlife Foundation. The new park, Palo Pinto Mountain State Park outside of Fort Worth, wouldn’t have happened without the Foundation. So it’s a, it continues. We’re making progress.

Lee Smith [00:32:19] Well, and there’s also various degrees. You have recreational parks.

Karen Hixon [00:32:23] Sure.

Karen Hixon [00:32:24] And Government Canyon isn’t a park.

Karen Hixon [00:32:26] No it’s a State Natural Area. And you’ve got to want … I mean, there are a lot of people. I mean, they could go to the lower parts of it. I mean, even, you know, if you really want to see it, there are parts of it that you can get to, but the average person isn’t going to climb all the way to the top.

Karen Hixon [00:32:43] So that’s and there’s as much history there, too, just because of the fabulous old buildings. And I mean, the reasons it’s called Government Canyon is because it was the, that was the the mail route or the government, whatever, you know, that went right through.

Lee Smith [00:32:58] Where did that name come from?

Karen Hixon [00:33:00] That’s it, it was, I think it was the mail route? It was some kind of government, as I said, delivery mode, road, whatever, that was for delivering mail or armies going through or something. But that’s where the name does come from.

Karen Hixon [00:33:20] And I’d have to go back. And I should know, but I don’t know. I can’t remember exactly at this point in time.

Lee Smith [00:33:25] What is the cultural significance there?

Karen Hixon [00:33:29] They’re huge. Well, unfortunately, before it was protected, people, there was, there were several ownerships, I think, of different parts of it. But obviously it was leased for hunting, which was fun.

Karen Hixon [00:33:45] But there were places that people took backhoes and dug out because of arrowheads and pottery and, you know, Native American sites and stuff. In fact, there is a collection of arrowheads that I mean, that was not how they were. People had a lease and over time they collected them but put them all in boxes and gave them. They’re in one of the classrooms out at Government Canyon right now.

Karen Hixon [00:34:11] But there were some fabulous sites, campsites and stuff that I don’t know. I mean, obviously that’s all come to a halt. But a lot was removed.

Lee Smith [00:34:24] So Native American.

Karen Hixon [00:34:25] Well, just the water. I mean, why wouldn’t they be there? That was water.

Lee Smith [00:34:35] So we talked about how Tim developed the public/private partnerships. Were there any specific partnerships at Government Canyon?

Karen Hixon [00:34:47] Well, the Trust for Public Land was probably the biggest one just because they were the biggest partner at the time. But the Conservancy… And there was I mean, even with some of the there had to be agreements with SAWS, with the San Antonio Water System, because of that. In fact, there was a fight years down the road because SAWS thought they had the right to come in and do some, build some dams for water. And they didn’t.

Lee Smith [00:35:22] Yeah.

Jeff Weigel [00:35:23] Just interjecting here. TNC didn’t have anything to do with the initial establishment of the park, but we’ve worked on helping acquire.

Karen Hixon [00:35:33] The adjacent. Yes.

Jeff Weigel [00:35:34] Additions over the years.

Karen Hixon [00:35:36] I’m trying to think. It was Parks and Wildlife. It was Trust for Public Land.

Jeff Weigel [00:35:43] No I think that’s right. We weren’t initially involved. But got to help with some additions.

Karen Hixon [00:35:48] But you all did you all work with Chris Hill, the Gallagher piece.

Jeff Weigel [00:35:53] Which isn’t an addition to the park. But it’s right next door.

Karen Hixon [00:35:56] Right.

Karen Hixon [00:35:57] But he did.

Jeff Weigel [00:35:57] Yeah.

Karen Hixon [00:35:58] He didn’t give any. He sold it.

Jeff Weigel [00:36:01] No, he donated a conservation easement.

Karen Hixon [00:36:05] Well, he did. That’s good. In honor of his mother. In honor of his mother? Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 3 [00:36:11] And I think he sold a piece to the park. Of course, now the Gallagher got sold to somebody else. Yeah.

Karen Hixon [00:36:17] Yeah.

Jeff Weigel [00:36:18] So we had a role, an ongoing role.

[00:36:25] Did did Tim recruit individuals to help with any of the funding of Government Canyon, or was it?

Karen Hixon [00:36:34] I don’t think so.

Lee Smith [00:36:35] No families.

Karen Hixon [00:36:36] No, no, it was all done, you know, through the department and the other partners.

Lee Smith [00:36:42] So moving now on to Honey Creek: what is, what is special about Honey Creek?

Karen Hixon [00:36:48] My gosh. It’s just one of the gorgeous places in the world. You know, it’s one of the places you don’t feel like you’re in Texas just because of obviously the cypress trees and the water and the cypress trees and just the whole, it’s just a beautiful little jewel piece. It’s what I’m sure much of the Hill Country looked like. Still looks like it to a certain degree, but it is, I mean, and of course, the piece that’s being worked on now, I mean, there’re headwaters of Honey Creek and springs to be saved. And it’s just a very, very important part of the Hill Country.

Lee Smith [00:37:37] How about the ferns? You’ve got the maiden..

Karen Hixon [00:37:43] Maidenhair?

Lee Smith [00:37:43] And then there are these others that are more of what you’d think of a fern. And then also I think there’s also… And then there’s the oaks. Tell me about the oaks. Tell me about the oaks as you come first.

Karen Hixon [00:37:56] When you first come in. Yeah. Well, there’s a great quote by somebody. Only the good Lord knows how many kinds of oak trees there are, depending on where you go in the state, whether it’s West Texas or around Honey Creek or whatever. All different kinds. And just the I mean, it’s such a wonderful. I don’t know what you call something that’s not a monoculture, whether it’s a whatever culture, you know, it’s just has everything and continues to have. And, you know, as I say, to me, the cypress trees and the cypress knees and and little things when you walk in and wade in the creek and stuff are just phenomenal. Bird life. Plant life. It’s …

Lee Smith [00:38:35] The sound is very unique there. And I don’t know whether it’s a combination of it being.

Karen Hixon [00:38:44] It’s kind of yeah, you know, in it’s not really a valley, but it does everything kind of gets drawn down to the water at the bottom. And it is, you know, it’s a magical place, I think.

Lee Smith [00:38:56] It’s almost like your perception is as layered as that habitat.

Karen Hixon [00:39:06] Mmhmm.

Lee Smith [00:39:06] You’ll first start hearing the water. And then what’s the next thing you hear?

Karen Hixon [00:39:13] Well. I mean, I listen for birds. So, hopefully they’re chiming in. But too this, the new piece, hopefully to be added to it soon is really more grassland than it is. It’s open and it’s grassland as opposed to what, when you think of Honey Creek and you think of the water, obviously, and the trees surrounding it. So, I mean, it just expands the whole ecosystem of what’s there and can be preserved. And that’s where the caves and stuff that are there, I think that’s the headwaters are on this new piece that hopefully am going to happen.

Lee Smith [00:39:55] So what does that tell us about the interconnectivity of things? They’re different. You’ve got one that’s a grassland. And one that’s this beautiful cypress valley.

Karen Hixon [00:40:06] So you wouldn’t have one without the other and you better pay attention to see how they do interconnect, because if there is…

Karen Hixon [00:40:14] You know, we have a ranch in Idaho, as I mentioned before, and we fight the beavers, but we wouldn’t have lots of the meadows and things that we have if we hadn’t had the beavers as a whole. You just have to learn to pay a little more attention and see what’s going on, and realize that everything is connected.

Lee Smith [00:40:39] How does a place like Honey Creek calm you?

Karen Hixon [00:40:46] You know, that’s just, for me, it’s like, you know, it’s like the book, “The Last Child in the Woods”, you know, suffering from nature deficit disorder. If kids, if kids, people, whatever, it’s not so much. Well, it’s an equal balance of not knowing what’s in nature because they don’t go out but missing what it provides to you as far as that calming.

Karen Hixon [00:41:16] I mean, it’s just to get away from screens and people and, you know, push buttons and everything else. It’s just, I’m not sure I have the words to describe it. But for me, that’s just, it drives me crazy. Even walking around my neighborhood with my dog, the people that are walking plugged in to their phones or something, I said, you know, I just want to go because we have foxes in the neighborhood and all kinds of birds. And I just want to go “Look, listen, you know. You’re missing so much. Look!” but, you know, it’s it’s it’s a process.

Lee Smith [00:42:01] Honey Creek almost makes you just stop and be still.

Karen Hixon [00:42:06] It does. It’s almost a religious quality to it. And I think it’s when you get there, you realize that nobody has to tell you. You know, just it has that effect on you.

Karen Hixon [00:42:20] I can remember going out with Lady Bird Johnson when Andy first took her out there trying to, you know, put it all together and showing her and and it did. I mean, there’s a there’s a reverence about it that you have to be or that you have to make of yourself in order to be there because you don’t want to spoil anything. It is just so beautiful and perfect the way it is.

Lee Smith [00:42:49] And so kind of like Government Canyon. How does it fit in to, I mean we’ve talked about the beautiful park that’s up to TNC.

Lee Smith [00:43:02] But how does fit in again.

Karen Hixon [00:43:03] It’s the water. Water. Water. Water. And you know we’re only sadly beginning to appreciate how difficult it’s going to be with all these people moving to the state. And what is it, they expect the population to double or triple by 2050? Whatever it is, I forget, you know. And it is a renewable resource to a certain extent, but you’ve got to protect it and take care of it.

Karen Hixon [00:43:28] And as I say, this new piece for Honey Creek, that’s where the headwaters are. And you want to make sure that some development doesn’t get built that’s putting treated water back into these pristine creeks. I mean, it’s one of the few that is left.

Lee Smith [00:43:44] Well, it’s a renewable resource, but the resource needs a vehicle.

Karen Hixon [00:43:48] Yes.

Lee Smith [00:43:49] So how do these pieces fit become the vehicle?

Karen Hixon [00:43:53] Well, again, you’re you’re saving what you can. It’s being developed at way too great a rate and not enough controls on on how it can be. But if we don’t protect the recharge zone, if we don’t protect these springs and things, we won’t have the water.

Lee Smith [00:44:16] And we talked about the future project. How important is that project? I mean, is to. Is it is it the last piece?

Karen Hixon [00:44:27] Hopefully not. You know, you never want it to be the last piece and and nobody. I think the neighbors around there have always known about it, but it was only obviously when all the development issues and things came up that they realized it was in danger of being sold as well and going away. And so. It just had to. And that’s one of the things that Conservancy does best, is to find these pieces.

Lee Smith [00:44:57] So how has the pandemic kind of enhanced or made us more aware of the need for the outdoors and nature?

Karen Hixon [00:45:09] Well, I think it’s certainly gotten more people outside. You know, you couldn’t, you couldn’t buy a bicycle.

Lee Smith [00:45:17] Yeah.

Karen Hixon [00:45:18] Well, everybody’s walking. But I mean, even the neighborhoods – I look at the number of people out walking dogs or just walking anymore. Three years ago, you wouldn’t have seen nearly so many.

Karen Hixon [00:45:31] So it’s, hopefully it’s made them more aware. I don’t know, you know, if there is a real cause and effect. I can’t put my finger on it, but I think it is. You know, people weren’t going to the office, had to stay home. So what’s the alternative? Let’s go outside and hopefully get to some of these places. And outside happily being the safest place to be during the pandemic. You weren’t around a lot of people or you could get away from people.

Lee Smith [00:45:55] We don’t know yet.

Karen Hixon [00:45:58] We don’t know. No, we don’t know. But it’s, there seems to be hopefully a push in that direction anyway.

Lee Smith [00:46:11] So what advice do you have for young people that may be considering a career in conservation?

Karen Hixon [00:46:21] You know, I just, we have a young friend who is now working for the Parks and Wildlife Foundation, but he came and spent a summer and worked on our ranch in Idaho. And he credits that with his interest in conservation. And he worked for, he lived in Portland and worked for a group called Western Rivers for a while and stuff, but it just, you got to be exposed.

Karen Hixon [00:46:48] And even we do youth hunts at the ranch in Cotula. I mean that as much as you can get these kids, whether it’s through hunting or fishing, I mean, the fishing is wonderful too, but just exposure and getting them out of the classroom and outside.

Karen Hixon [00:47:05] And it, I mean it’s it’s a great field to be in. If I had it to do all over again in college and stuff, I would have done it differently, studied different things.

Lee Smith [00:47:18] So what is your outlook about the future of conservation?

Karen Hixon [00:47:25] Oh, I have a very positive outlook because I do think that there’s generations coming along. These kids are interested. They, you know, they know a lot. A lot of it is tied to technology. And that’s not totally a bad thing because some of that is very helpful. But I think they are interested and see what’s going on, and the developments that are going on.

Karen Hixon [00:47:47] And people are moving out of cities. We don’t want them all here, but they seem to be coming anyway.

Karen Hixon [00:47:57] You know, and just an awareness. They got to be aware. It just defies me, with especially I mean, around Boerne. Obviously, that’s the ground zero of what’s going on, but the people that want to live there but they don’t understand that with their coming, if they don’t do something about it, it’s going to change the, change the reason they moved there.

Lee Smith [00:48:28] I think I saw a picture of you, a video of you, with a pretty outstanding tree house.

Karen Hixon [00:48:35] Yes.

Lee Smith [00:48:36] Tell me about that tree house and what’s special about it.

Karen Hixon [00:48:40] It is. Well, it’s at our ranch in Cotulla. And it’s, we’re on the Nueces, but we’re actually on a big slough of the Nueces. We’re not actually on on the main river. And there was a big irrigation dam that was built in 1904 that blew out in 2000, just silt built up over time and nobody was really using it anyway. So it used to back water up into our slough all the time. Now it’s not. It’s dry a lot of the time, but the, the tree is built in a motte of oaks right over the slough and it was built for my grandchildren. There was a wonderful young man here in town that built treehouses, and he designed it.

Karen Hixon [00:49:19] And unfortunately, they’ve outgrown it for the moment. But it’s, it’ll get used again, still gets used and it’ll get used again. But it’s just, it’s set up into the trees. You know, it takes advantage of where it is. I mean that Aughty sited it where he wanted it to be and that was the whole idea that it would be part of, be part of the tree as much as anything, trees. So, you know.

Lee Smith [00:49:48] What’s special about that experience?

Karen Hixon [00:49:52] Well, in the early days when it was when the kids were using it all the time, I mean, they, you know, slept in it, camped out in it. We had screech owls nesting up in the tree. Had to fight the raccoons nonstop. But, you know, that’s that’s another issue. But they just loved it. You know, they happily, my grandchildren like to be outside.

Lee Smith [00:50:13] What about you?

Karen Hixon [00:50:15] For me?

Lee Smith [00:50:16] Yeah. Didn’t you like going in there?

Karen Hixon [00:50:17] Going in there? I did. I still do. I have to go in to make sure that all the windows and the doors are shut so the raccoons don’t get in. And it’s. It’s a fun place.

Karen Hixon [00:50:30] And it has a little porch area around the outside where you can sit out. And I have bird feeders all over the place. So. And even dry, the slough attracts a lot of bird life. And we have feeders around for turkeys and we get other, tree ducks are there right now. And we get wood storks come through in the spring, which they don’t stay very long, but it’s fun. And we get sandhill cranes in the wintertime. And so it’s and what the the painted buntings and the hooded orioles are there now, so.

Lee Smith [00:51:07] I saw that footage and it’s like I want to go spend a night there.

Karen Hixon [00:51:11] It is. I bought in those big beanbag bed things, you know, that you can sleep on so. And my son wired it so there is light. You know.

Lee Smith [00:51:23] Ought to wire it with some cameras so you can sit at home and go, “Oooh! There’s something here and I need to go out.”

Karen Hixon [00:51:29] Well, we need it. We didn’t do that. There’s a young man who’s with Caesar Kleberg that’s doing bobcat research on the ranch right now, and he’s got 53 cameras or something all over the place and actually got a mountain lion a couple times on one of the cameras. It’s very exciting. They evidently work up and down the river – you know, a big male. So I don’t know. But yeah, it’d be fun to have a camera around there just to see what we pick up.