Conservation History Association of Texas
Texas Legacy Project
Oral History Interview
Nature Conservancy in Texas

Interviewee: Ryan Smith
Date: June 7, 2022
Site: San Antonio, Texas
Reels: 3720-3721
Executive Producer: Lydia Saldana
Producer: Jeff Weigel
Field Producer / Chief Interviewer: Lee Smith
Videographer: Curtis Craven
Writer / Editor: Ron Kabele
Transcriber: David Todd / Trint
Item: Smith_Ryan_NCItem30_SanAntonioTX_20220607_Reel3720-3721_Audio.mp3

[Bracketed numbers refer to the time code for the interview recording.]

Lee Smith [00:00:16] So where did you grow up?

Ryan Smith [00:00:19] I don’t know if I can admit that.

Lee Smith [00:00:21] Where did you grow up?

Ryan Smith [00:00:22] I grew up in Southern California. That was, I was born in Orange County, California, and lived there until college and then lived in Colorado for a while.

Lee Smith [00:00:35] So until college. So where did you go to college?

Ryan Smith [00:00:38] Went to college at Colorado State University in Fort Collins. Eventually went on to grad school at Virginia Tech. You know, some people say they got to Texas as quick as they can. Well I got out of California as quick as I could because I knew by the time I grew up that that wasn’t where I wanted to be. So I bounced around all over everywhere.

Lee Smith [00:01:00] And so was there any aspect of your childhood that you can remember, like your first kind of, “I love nature. I love being outside.” What was, can you remember that?

Ryan Smith [00:01:12] I can. Yeah. Well, there’s. So I got into fish. That’s how I got I got into conservation and into nature.

Ryan Smith [00:01:19] And my my parents debate over who’s responsible for that. My mom says it’s it was her because she painted fish on my walls when I was a kid. My bedroom had had fish painted on the walls for whatever reason.

Ryan Smith [00:01:36] But then I was very into aquarium into aquaria, into aquarium fish. But my dad took me fishing a lot. We went, we always vacationed in Colorado in the summers. So did a lot of trout fishing.

Ryan Smith [00:01:49] So the fish on the walls, the fish in the aquarium, the the fishing in the summer – some combination thereof.

Lee Smith [00:01:58] And river fishing?

Ryan Smith [00:02:00] River fishing? Yep. We did. You know, I grew up very close to the coast. We did do some ocean fishing when I was really little. We had a, my dad had a boat, so we did, we did do some fishing when I was really little. And we did some coastal fishing. But mostly it was the summers in Colorado that I looked forward to. So.

Lee Smith [00:02:23] And so I guess the family member that well, I guess they’re still debating. Yeah.

Ryan Smith [00:02:28] Yeah. Who’s responsible? Whose fault is it?

Ryan Smith [00:02:32] It was, it was really probably more my dad though, because he, he was the one that, you know, that really got me into into fishing. And we, you know, we grew up kind of doing Southern California things, but I always looked forward to going fishing with dad in the in the summer. And that was the the main time that we had together.

Ryan Smith [00:02:52] And that was really more the area that I went into. I mean, I, I did a lot of aquarium fish and could have gone in that direction as a career. But I think it was, it was really more time with dad fishing for trout up in the mountains, in thunderstorms, stuff like that that, that is probably most responsible. So he wins the argument.

Lee Smith [00:03:14] On that Colorado stuff, too, is it’s not just I mean, you’re in that with the mountains and the trees and that and the smell of it is, you know, it’s very.

Ryan Smith [00:03:25] Yes.

Lee Smith [00:03:25] Visceral.

Ryan Smith [00:03:27] It is. Yeah. And that I think even though I grew up, as you know, in the suburbs in Southern California, that was probably where that that heart connection, that heart-level connection started.

Lee Smith [00:03:40] What about in terms of your education? Was there anybody that inspired you throughout your education career?

Ryan Smith [00:03:49] Yeah, absolutely. When I was at Colorado State University, there was a professor there. I went in and I knew I wanted to do natural resources and went into the natural resources college, but wasn’t really sure what area. And initially got into fishing and met all these guys, all these professors, that knew how to grow big bass and big trout and all that. And I thought that was somewhat interesting.

Ryan Smith [00:04:15] But I met another professor whose name was Kurt Fausch, who’s who’s written some some famous books recently on river conservation. And I think Kurt was the one that really made, helped me make an intellectual connection to to the natural world and develop that kind of intellectual curiosity that I think eventually became my professional interest. So so Kurt Fausch was definitely an early influencer. I had more later, too, but probably the first one.

Lee Smith [00:04:53] Was there anything in popular culture, any books, magazines or films that inspired you?

Ryan Smith [00:05:01] Yeah, I don’t know about popular culture. There there were some. I think I was very influenced by some of the kind of seminal works in the conservation realm, like including Aldo Leopold’s “Sand County Almanac”.

Ryan Smith [00:05:18] Later on, I mean, if there was anything pop culture, the closest thing was probably, you know, the what’s it called, the when a river runs through or “A River Runs Through It”, the movie. I think that I was a fly fisherman, but it was really more just the images in that in the, you know, the story, just the nature of of their of the family’s connection to to the river. I think that that’s probably the closest thing to pop culture.

Lee Smith [00:05:48] And with, you know, your experience in Colorado.

Ryan Smith [00:05:51] Yeah, that kind of rang true. And also, you know, their their dad being the one that took them out fishing. Yeah.

Lee Smith [00:06:00] So when did you first, what was your first conservation work?

Ryan Smith [00:06:06] Yeah. So the first, well, I guess the first related work was was research. You know, doing research as initially as an undergraduate technician with that same professor. And in that case, I was lucky enough to be an undergraduate technician on a project that became very influential in trout ecology and things like that, that kind of challenged one of the ways of thinking about about fish, or about trout, and how much they moved around, and actually ended up being pretty influential in in the conservation realm.

Ryan Smith [00:06:42] So while I was just, you know, I was just a little measly field technician as those papers were coming on, I realized that I had contributed to something that that was a pretty important contribution to the to the field.

Lee Smith [00:06:56] How did that, you know, kind of put some wind under your sail?

Ryan Smith [00:07:04] Well, I think really the, and also the other great thing about being involved in that lab was I had the opportunity to actually publish a paper myself, where I went back to the aquarium background and did some some lab research and was able to publish myself.

Ryan Smith [00:07:21] So that was a real early exposure just to the to the whole realm of science and how to contribute to it. And I presented a paper, won a best paper award at a at a conference from that. But I think really that kind of got me going on on the path towards actually what I really felt like eventually would be an academic career.

Ryan Smith [00:07:44] Yeah. And I got connected to another really, and maybe I shouldn’t say eminent, to another very well-known professor in the realm of fish ecology. I was lucky enough to get in in his lab as a as a master’s student. And this, by the way, this is another, another real mentor and influencer in getting me toward, into the realm of conservation, but was able to to get in on really interesting research there that I think just kind of continued down the path of becoming intellectually interested in in conservation and eventually fish ecology, things like that. Yeah. And that’s.

Lee Smith [00:08:30] Good. Now, this is kind of a no-brainer kind of thing. But why is protecting a water source, why is protecting water sources important?

Ryan Smith [00:08:48] You? Well, actually, that last question was the one about conservation. Right? I should probably mention my initial, you know, when I.. .

Ryan Smith [00:08:58] So my my first job out of grad school was with the state of Virginia and did work with Virginia for about a year.

Ryan Smith [00:09:07] But very soon thereafter, this job came open with this organization called the Nature Conservancy, which I had heard about. And my mom paid her annual membership to the Nature Conservancy, and we had the magazine growing up, but didn’t really know that much about it.

Ryan Smith [00:09:24] But it was a it was a full-time job. And I thought, you know, it’s not an academic job, but it could be an interesting way to get some experience for a year or two before going and doing a Ph.D.

Ryan Smith [00:09:39] So I got, I went to work for the Nature Conservancy, first in North Carolina and was working with, at the time, our headquarters-level freshwater group. It was called the Freshwater Initiative, and that was really the group that figured out how to bring the Nature Conservancy into being a player in water conservation, in freshwater conservation.

Ryan Smith [00:10:04] And what and what I really saw really early on was this is an opportunity to not just, while the academic stuff was interesting and learning about the systems was interesting, this was a group that was taking that information and figuring out how to actually protect these these, these fish, these rivers, these ecosystems.

Ryan Smith [00:10:25] And pretty pretty quickly, I shifted interest from eventually going back into the academic realm and was just drawn to the idea of being involved with an organization that was actually doing something about these problems and solving solving these conservation issues and actually had a chance to be involved with doing that work on the ground. So that was that was my my actual entry into into the conservation realm.

Lee Smith [00:10:58] Cool. And it dovetails right into.

Ryan Smith [00:11:01] Yep.

Lee Smith [00:11:01] Why is protecting these sources important?

Ryan Smith [00:11:04] Yeah. Well, water is life. Water is life, not just for these these fish that were so interesting to me growing up. But I think as I as I learned more and more about ecosystems and learned more and more about the the nature of how all aspects of of our culture and our human life depends on on water.

Ryan Smith [00:11:30] I think, I mean, I think that that’s the key thing is that all life depends on water, whether we’re talking about people like me who love fishing, growing up as a kid, or at the same time really realizing that I grew up in an area that was fully dependent on water being imported to that area and learning about just the nature about how all aspects of human society depend on on water, both consumptive uses and needing drinking water, which is such a challenge, you know, water security globally, but also just recreational, spiritual, all those ways in which people like me that are recharged by being out there on the river fishing or whatever.

Ryan Smith [00:12:15] That all depends on healthy aquatic ecosystems.

Ryan Smith [00:12:19] And I think that was the other thing about the Nature Conservancy that that I was drawn to was I was of course committed to and interested in protecting these ecosystems for the sake of the fish and stuff like that. It was academically interesting.

Ryan Smith [00:12:35] But this was an organization that wasn’t just a fire-breathing environmental organization trying to save rivers for fish, but recognized that it was about people and nature, and finding ways to make human uses compatible with with environmental needs, which is which is critical because there won’t be an environmental solution that works unless it also works for for people. So I think that that was the the another critical thing coming to work for the Conservancy and seeing seeing that, trying to find those creative solutions.

Lee Smith [00:13:19] So now you’re with the Texas or the Nature Conservancy in Texas. So what what tools are you using to accomplish this?

Ryan Smith [00:13:31] Yeah. Well, I think your the history of the Nature Conservancy in Texas really shows the evolution of of the tools for for protecting water. You know, you’ve you’ve heard and we’ll hear from some other folks in the neat stories about some of the early properties that we that we protected and remain some of the pearls in our preserve network in Texas. And that’s one of the that’s the background of the Conservancy protecting land. And that’s that was the first key thing that that and the Nature Conservancy, on the whole, but certainly in Texas, did for protecting water is protecting those aquatic habitats that were protected by these early land deals.

Ryan Smith [00:14:17] And actually, even before I even left my undergraduate degree, I knew of some of the land protection projects that we, that that they, these old guys, had done in Texas protecting these critical aquatic habitats like like Diamond Y Spring Preserve, places like that.

Ryan Smith [00:14:36] I, I knew of that even before I ever came here, because that protection of the habitat itself from from conversion for land development or energy or whatever is, that’s the first tool in the toolbox. And that’s where we started in Texas.

Ryan Smith [00:14:56] But we needed to go beyond that, obviously. And we can we can protect those places. But that that does not protect the water, protect those ecosystems, from all the potential impacts that, you know, could literally suck the water right out from under the property that we just, you know, we protected.

Ryan Smith [00:15:13] So and that was the group, the group that I worked with before coming to Texas was trying to create some of those innovative solutions for how to protect the water that goes along with the land.

Ryan Smith [00:15:28] So in Texas, some of the other tools we use are different approaches that we can use to protect the water. Some of the other tools that we use, first of all, we, very early on, as we became a landowner in in Texas and in some of these important places, we became a player in water management, in management of the water resources in these places that we were a landowner.

Ryan Smith [00:15:57] And one of the important things that we were very early got got involved in because a lot of these places like the Devils River, places in the Hill Country and West Texas, they depend on groundwater inputs to maintain those ecosystems. We got involved in in groundwater management, which is is really highly dependent on good information, understanding how the groundwater feeds into the surface water ecosystems, supports the the species that we care about.

Ryan Smith [00:16:28] So we very early on, I think the next thing with that we we really dove into was helping develop the science and understanding, because we had some of these really important laboratories for, for developing that understanding. And we worked with the groundwater managers to do the research, to understand the ecosystem, to understand the nature of the connection to the groundwater, how it supported the fish, things like that.

Ryan Smith [00:16:54] And and that has enabled the groundwater managers to make better decisions about, say, limits on pumping or particular areas where they need to, where the groundwater / surface water connection is very sensitive.

Ryan Smith [00:17:11] So we’ve got a we’ve got a really critically important role to play in that because we own these properties.

Ryan Smith [00:17:18] Some other things that we that we work on a lot, we have to go to a higher or higher scale too. Not all the work can happen at the scale of the properties or from the bottom-up. But we also need to work on, on on policy and we need to work with with decision makers on how Texas water is used and allocated.

Ryan Smith [00:17:41] And early on, when I came to Texas, which was in 2005, the state had enacted some new legislation related to what’s called “environmental flows”, which is how do we keep enough water in our rivers to maintain a sound ecological environment, while also allowing for the consumptive uses. And this was something in the middle 2000s that the Texas chapter got deeply involved in, both in helping to form the the the legislation that created this approach in Texas.

Ryan Smith [00:18:15] But then also in becoming involved in the science teams that helped develop, “What are those, how much water does the river need?” That’s a key thing to to start with: do the science to understand what the river needs.

Ryan Smith [00:18:28] And then working with the stakeholders to find an acceptable balance that both allows the human uses, but but at least gets close to maintaining most of what is needed for that “sound ecological environment”. That’s the term that’s used.

Ryan Smith [00:18:45] So we got very involved in that at at the onset of that process.

Ryan Smith [00:18:52] But what that’s led into, I think, is is maybe one of our most important things that we’re doing now is we can we can understand what the rivers need. But in most cases, in the rivers in Texas, we’re not even at that state right now. There’s been so much water allocated or permitted that we can’t even keep the rivers at that minimum level or the the flow regime that’s needed to keep the rivers healthy.

Ryan Smith [00:19:21] So we’re in the we’re in the process of of really of restoration. How do we put some water back in the rivers? Because our, these flow protections, these minimum flow levels, aren’t going to do any good if we’ve already busted them.

Ryan Smith [00:19:36] So one of the things that we’re we’re working a lot in in Texas is trying to find ways to work with water users – ag producers, also industrial water users and municipal users – to incentivize using that water more efficiently or even potentially allocating, reallocating, some of the water that they’re using for environmental purposes.

Ryan Smith [00:20:01] And this is a whole realm referred to as environmental water transactions or water markets. And that is, how do we use different creative financial incentives to to drive more efficient use of water, and drive reallocation of some of that water that’s already permitted to the to for environmental purposes?

Ryan Smith [00:20:24] Another one of the tools that we use is, is actually an approach that was developed by that Freshwater Initiative that I worked with in the early 2000s, and that was how do we how do we use dams as a as a conservation tool essentially, because we’ve we’ve dammed a lot of our rivers in Texas, nearly all of them.

Ryan Smith [00:20:48] And a lot of rivers have been dammed because we’ve got all kinds of challenges, water supply needs, flood control. And those are needed as part of ameliorating those those impacts. But that’s created all kinds of problems for the ecosystems.

Ryan Smith [00:21:05] So is there a way that we could work with those dam operators, or those those dam owners, to change things a little bit in how they release water from the dams in order to put back some of the function of the ecosystems that’s that’s been lost?

Ryan Smith [00:21:20] And what we did, what the Nature Conservancy did at headquarters level in the early 2000s, was developed a partnership with the US Army Corps of Engineers, which is by far the largest dam operator and owner and water manager in the US.

Ryan Smith [00:21:37] And we just asked the question, “Are there ways we can work together with the Corps at individual dams to figure out ways to put some of that function back in with what the river needs below the below the dams?”

Ryan Smith [00:21:50] And we call this the Sustainable Rivers program. It was initially a project, now a program.

Ryan Smith [00:21:56] And that’s one of the neat things, that’s one of the neat things about Texas is Texas has had one of the original projects with that partnership with the Corps since 2004. That’s in Caddo Lake and Cypress Bayou in East Texas.

Ryan Smith [00:22:15] So that that dam management or sometimes we call it re-operation because we’re finding new ways to operate it for ecosystem benefit. That’s another key tool that we we use to meet some of these challenges. And we’re now expanding that to several other river basins throughout throughout Texas.

Lee Smith [00:22:34] So what about water, environmental water transactions?

Ryan Smith [00:22:39] Yes.

Lee Smith [00:22:40] Give me some examples of those and what what those are.

Ryan Smith [00:22:43] Sure. So an environmental water transaction is simply a term that means that there’s there is a payment made for water with the intent of an environmental benefit.

Ryan Smith [00:22:56] So there’s all kinds of obviously all kinds of transactions, all kinds of markets where goods or services are exchanged. And this is, in some sense, is is no different where we have an environmental need and we have someone who has has a water right or has water available, whether they’re an agricultural user or or another kind of water user.

Ryan Smith [00:23:21] And an environmental water transaction is simply just a payment, which could take many different forms, to that, to that water right holder In order to to. Sorry.

Ryan Smith [00:23:41] So it’s a payment to that water right holder in order to derive some environmental benefit, usually in the form of either having water remain in the river or or generating efficiencies in the way that water is used.

Ryan Smith [00:23:57] So some examples. The most the most obvious example that’s that’s commonly used is, is in simplest, although by far the hardest and most difficult to actually fund, is an outright water purchase. You know, if there’s someone who holds a water right, they’re not using it or they’re otherwise interested in in generating some income, then that water right could be purchased outright.

Ryan Smith [00:24:23] And because of some legislation in the early 2000s in Texas, that water can now be allocated to in-stream use as a beneficial use. So it could stay environmental and not and not be be lost and then repermitted to another another purpose, municipal or whatever.

Ryan Smith [00:24:42] So an environmental, a water rights purchase is is one example of an environmental water transaction.

Ryan Smith [00:24:49] But what we’re doing a lot of is a whole, is a variety of creative conservation agreements with landowners where we don’t purchase the water outright, but where we’re we are either using lease agreements or forbearance agreements with these landowners to use less water, particularly in times like we’re going into right now, in times of drought.

Ryan Smith [00:25:15] So it could allow the landowner to still derive, derive some income because we’re making a payment to them. It’s it’s a it’s a transaction. It’s a financial transaction. But so they’re still getting some some economic benefit.

Ryan Smith [00:25:30] But that water, at these most critical times, is remaining in the river.

Ryan Smith [00:25:35] Or, less water is being used for agricultural use because another type of transaction could be could be simply to to pay for irrigation upgrades, irrigation efficiency upgrades, on an agricultural operation, or facilitating switching to a less water-intensive crop, or even cover cropping to make soil hydrology more, more efficient and more resilient to drought.

Ryan Smith [00:26:07] So it’s a broad term that we’re we’re exploring the full breadth of what that what that term is, because really that’s, that’s what’s needed in these rivers that are overallocated, where all the water has either been given out or more than would if everybody used all of it, the river would would either dry up or the flow would be too low. So we’ve got to get creative in working with these these these water users in order to to build back, to build, to to meet some of that gap, as best we can.

Lee Smith [00:26:41] And that’s surface water – like water rights the adjacent landowner has. What about groundwater? Is that mainly covered by the upgrades to the irrigation systems?

Ryan Smith [00:26:56] Yeah.

Lee Smith [00:26:56] Because we got we’ve got those two different rules, got Rule of Capture and then we’ve got…

Ryan Smith [00:27:00] Exactly.

Lee Smith [00:27:01] Yeah.

Ryan Smith [00:27:02] Yeah. So it absolutely could be surface water or groundwater. And like, like your, like you’re highlighting, the legal framework for surface water makes it much, it’s much more conducive to this because because of the first-in-time, first-in-right, the nature of the western water rights doctrine that Texas is under.

Ryan Smith [00:27:27] On the groundwater side because the water, the groundwater, is not allocated out in that in that way, but simply is the the property of of the surface owner, it’s more complicated, simply because there’s no there’s no way of ensuring that certain people are only using certain portions.

Ryan Smith [00:27:49] However, there are ways that we can use this this approach in the groundwater realm, also, including and in many ways, conservation easements can be an environmental water transaction.

Ryan Smith [00:28:02] We’ve got many examples of conservation easements that we’ve done in the Texas chapter that are in critically important areas where we we do not want to see not only the surface developed or subdivided, but we also don’t want to see that groundwater developed. So we’ve got prohibitions on groundwater use in these places also.

Ryan Smith [00:28:26] And then there are also places like the Edwards Aquifer where there has been a legislative cap established for use of the Edwards Aquifer in in and around San Antonio. And so that has resulted in a groundwater market there in in many ways. So there are places where absolutely we can use this approach in the groundwater realm.

Lee Smith [00:28:52] So moving to Caddo, what’s what’s important about Caddo, Cado Lake?

Ryan Smith [00:28:58] Yeah.

Ryan Smith [00:29:00] Well Caddo Lake is is a truly special place in in every way, not just ecologically. It is it is a truly, it actually has been recognized as an internationally important wetland by the RAMSAR wetland convention. So it’s a critically important ecosystem for migrating waterfowl, things like that.

Ryan Smith [00:29:22] But maybe even more importantly, culturally and economically to that to northeast Texas and northwest Louisiana, it really is kind of the center of of tourism, of recreation and water supply. So it’s a it’s a it’s a critically important place for for for people and nature.

Ryan Smith [00:29:48] And it is one of the few natural lakes in Texas. It’s often said it’s the only natural lake in Texas. That’s not true. But it’s it’s the only largish natural lake in Texas.

Ryan Smith [00:29:57] So so a critically important place for protection of habitat, but also that connection to to people.

Lee Smith [00:30:06] And it’s just really cool.

Ryan Smith [00:30:09] Yeah.

Ryan Smith [00:30:10] You know, I mean, it’s.

Ryan Smith [00:30:12] Yeah.

Ryan Smith [00:30:13] You can talk about the Edwards Aquifer, but you can’t really see the Edwards Aquifer down there.

Ryan Smith [00:30:17] Yeah.

Lee Smith [00:30:18] I mean you can see a couple of springs here and there, but you know, I mean, it’s, Caddo smacks you in the face.

Ryan Smith [00:30:23] Yeah. And anyone who’s, you don’t have to justify its importance to anyone who’s ever been there, that’s for sure. It is just, it is one of those places that just your jaw drops and it is, it is truly an amazing place.

Lee Smith [00:30:38] So what has the Nature Conservancy done to protect Caddo?

Ryan Smith [00:30:43] Well, Caddo is a neat, another example of how the evolution of our organization has has manifested itself in the protection of a place like Caddo.

Ryan Smith [00:30:54] So we have a preserve there. We still still own property in fee there. So we have a Caddo Lake Preserve.

Ryan Smith [00:31:03] But also we’ve we protected a lot of other properties that are now part of the Wildlife Management Area. Yeah.

Ryan Smith [00:31:13] So that and so our history of land protection in that in that watershed which actually continues, by the way, we continue to help add properties to, to the protected areas out there. That was a critical kind of entry point for us into engaging in the broader array of conservation issues around Caddo Lake, and also becoming a a player and a stakeholder.

Ryan Smith [00:31:37] So because that was an important place for us when back to that in the early 2000s where that Freshwater Initiative was developing this partnership with the Corps of Engineers, because we had that that connection there.

Ryan Smith [00:31:52] And we’re like, “Hey, there’s the Corps of Engineers presence here, and there’s a dam upstream that connects that greatly affects the health of the lake and the bayou coming down into the lake. We want to get in on this.”

Ryan Smith [00:32:05] So that’s why Caddo Lake became one of the original eight sites for that Sustainable Rivers program, our our partnership with the Corps of Engineers. And really because of our our land protection history, that led us into having a big piece in this, developing the strategy of how to operate dams for ecosystem benefit.

Ryan Smith [00:32:28] Because again, we protected the land and some of the land around the lake and actually some of the lakebed itself, which we still still own. But if the flow into the lake is not healthy, then, you know, we’ve only solved one of the problems.

Lee Smith [00:32:44] And moving forward, what’s going on?

Ryan Smith [00:32:51] Yeah. So, so moving forward. And one of the neat things about Caddo Lake, by the way, is the whole idea with this work with the Corps was can we come up with a way of recommending flow releases that both maintain, in this case the water supply purpose of the dam, also the flood control purpose of the dam, maintain recreation, but also enhance the ecosystem.

Ryan Smith [00:33:14] And we found that we did. And the Corps has actually formally adopted those flow recommendations as part of the operation of the dam, which which is a great success, and one of, I forget the number right now, but one of only a handful of places where that’s happened around the US.

Ryan Smith [00:33:32] So what’s neat about that is we continue to work at Caddo because that there are still some other challenges, particularly related to getting some higher flows into that that swamp, that that kind of primordial cypress swamp that’s the thing that makes everyone there just, you know, just love the place. There are still some things we need to do to get some higher flows into those areas more, more frequently. So we continue to work on that.

Ryan Smith [00:34:00] But the other thing that’s really neat about that is that’s been a very influential project in the state of Texas.

Ryan Smith [00:34:08] First, the work that we did on environmental flows there was really the demonstration of some of the state of the art of of how to keep water in rivers. And it very, very much influenced the development of that environmental flows legislation that I mentioned earlier, and the development of of the thinking in Texas of how to protect flow in rivers. And we had brought some of that here, demonstrated it with the Corps of Engineers, and it was very influential.

Ryan Smith [00:34:38] The other aspect is we are now, we’ve now extended that partnership to really three other river basins in in Texas where we have not gotten to the point yet of dam operations being changed.

Ryan Smith [00:34:51] But in the the Neches River and the Brazos River and soon in the Trinity, we’re going to be working with stakeholders to again see if we can we can find ways that we can change, even slightly, just the operation of the dams in those basins for ecosystem benefit.

Ryan Smith [00:35:07] So it’s the whole idea with that project at Caddo was let’s demonstrate it. Show it’s possible. And then we can and then that’ll that will result in broader buy-in. And that’s exactly what’s what’s happening now. Very cool.

Lee Smith [00:35:26] Do you have a favorite spot there?

Ryan Smith [00:35:29] At Caddo?

Lee Smith [00:35:30] Yeah.

Lee Smith [00:35:31] We’re kind of moving through that whole swamp.

Ryan Smith [00:35:36] Yeah. No, that’s a that’s a great question.

Ryan Smith [00:35:42] Well, I’m I’m also a bird watcher, and I love the state park, the Caddo Lake State Park, which is really on the, very much on the upper end of the lake, upstream end of the lake, really in the in the bayou. So it’s got it’s got some neat swamp habitat, but it’s also, you know, we’re in this project, we’re trying to protect that that swamp and the lake, but we’re also trying to protect the floodplain forest that’s a little bit higher up, up off the water and also fish within it.

Ryan Smith [00:36:17] And that’s a neat place. The State Park’s a neat place where you can see all that in in one place.

Ryan Smith [00:36:23] We also work with a couple of private landowners right next to the state park. So I’ve had some some neat times out there, particularly in the fall. I love the fall, the fall color. Having lived in the East Coast for a while, there’s not that many places in Texas where you can, all due respect to to Texas, you know, there’s not that many places where it rivals the Appalachians and the east, but Caddo is one of those places in the fall. That’s probably my favorite.

Lee Smith [00:36:58] So now let’s go out west. Why is the Devils River system so important?

Ryan Smith [00:37:07] It’s pretty awesome that we get to sit here and talk about Caddo Lake and Devils River in the same the same conversation. We work for an organization that’s been a major player in protecting those those two places.

Ryan Smith [00:37:20] I mean, the Devils River is another one of those places that anyone who’s been there, you don’t have to tell them how how important it is. It is it is truly. I’ve traveled a lot internationally, worked on a lot of rivers, and there’s rivers that I deeply love in the east. But the Devil’s River is is one of these places that’s just just truly magical.

Ryan Smith [00:37:44] And it’s because you have this beautiful, clear, blue-hued river literally coming out of the desert and supporting this this truly unique ecosystem, not just the fish and the aquatic stuff, but but in this area where West Texas and central Texas and South Texas all come together, this river is the lifeblood of of all of that ecosystem.

Ryan Smith [00:38:13] And, you know, you can geek out if you’re a birdwatcher, you know, if you’re a fish geek, if you’re into plants. It’s just such a wonderfully unique place.

Ryan Smith [00:38:25] And I think the other thing that’s really important about the Devil’s River is, is it’s a place that we can still get this right. You know, there’s there’s a lot of places where we’ve made mistakes in how we’ve allocated water. We’ve overdeveloped you know, we’ve dammed, we’ve we’ve let development take over, and we’ve let the human needs get out of whack with the, the the needs of the ecosystems that the human needs actually depend on.

Ryan Smith [00:38:51] And the Devils, we’ve, we’ve still got a chance to get it right. So that that’s I think that’s the other thing that’s really special about the Devils.

Lee Smith [00:39:07] So how does the Devils River State Natural Area and Dolan Springs and Dolan Preserve fit into all of that?

Ryan Smith [00:39:18] Yes. So the the the Dolan Falls preserve and the Devils River State Natural Area, the North unit in particular, are really important because those those are places that are that are protected. And they’re in one of the two places where a lot of the that that lifeblood of the Devils River comes out of the ground.

Ryan Smith [00:39:42] So there’s there’s two main zones where that river is connected to the aquifer that that feeds it. And it’s connected to an aquifer called the Edwards Aquifer.

Ryan Smith [00:39:54] I started talking too fast here. If I start talking too fast. Just slow the fuck down.

Ryan Smith [00:40:03] So the Devils River is connected to an aquifer called the Edwards Trinity Plateau Aquifer that that really covers a very big swath of Central and West Texas. And one of the regional flow paths on that aquifer feeds right down into the Devils River, but also the Nueces and the Llano Rivers.

Ryan Smith [00:40:22] But and one of the two places where that connection takes place, the first one is on the Head Springs, up on a private ranch where the Devil’s River starts.

Ryan Smith [00:40:33] But the other is is in that area where the Preserve and the Natural Area are situated. And the river gains, and it varies in different hydrologic conditions, but the river can as much as double in flow in that area right there as it goes through, goes through Finegan Springs on the on the on the Natural Area and then through Dolan Springs on the Preserve. And then those those all come together right before Dolan Falls.

Ryan Smith [00:41:02] So it’s it’s a critical area, again, where that early heritage in land protection has ensured that we we don’t have impacts to those real sensitive habitats, but also has really served as a focal point for developing the science and building the support for doing what we can to still get it right out there as we’re thinking about how we want to manage that groundwater, as we’re thinking about how to make decisions on on recreation.

Ryan Smith [00:41:32] It’s it’s critical that Texans are able to enjoy the Devils River but not love it to death. So that’s another place where we’re we’re we’re we’re working with with like Parks, great partners like Parks and Wildlife Department to figure out how to how to get it right.

Lee Smith [00:41:52] What kind of research? Are you involved in any of the research?

Ryan Smith [00:41:56] Yes. So this this is another area where very early on after we we acquired that, well, where we started protecting properties in the Devils River watershed which. Somebody, Weigel, somebody will cover. James, Karges, they’ll cover that land protection, that?

Jeff Weigel [00:42:17] Yeah.

Ryan Smith [00:42:18] The land history.

Jeff Weigel [00:42:19] Yeah.

Ryan Smith [00:42:19] Right. I don’t know. I don’t need to go in that.

Jeff Weigel [00:42:21] Easements and fee and all that stuff. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Ryan Smith [00:42:25] So very early on when we when we became active in protecting land in the Devil’s River, it was it was very clear that we needed to understand the system better. So long before I came to Texas, we we began to, to try and become players in helping fill the science needs.

Ryan Smith [00:42:47] And early on, it was what are, how do we understand, how do these fish like the Devils River minnow, which is a federally threatened species depending on the Devils River, where do they occur in the river? What kind of habitat do they need? How do they connect to the to the flow?

Ryan Smith [00:43:05] And we helped facilitate some of that science as a landowner very early on, and also a lot of other basic ecological research on on the plants, on even down to the all the different types of bugs and things like that.

Ryan Smith [00:43:21] More recently, we’ve very deeply engaged with with partners trying to understand the connection to the aquifer and what’s, how does this aquifer system work, how does it connect to the Devils River? And also how much water does does the Devils River need?

Ryan Smith [00:43:37] I, I was part of some of the early studies that evaluated what are the flow needs of the Devils River?

Ryan Smith [00:43:45] And what we’re trying to do now is take that information, add it to the knowledge about how the river connects to the aquifer and help understand, “Okay, well, if we’re going to get it right here, how much water can we really allow to be pumped and where and in what periods?”

Ryan Smith [00:44:01] And how is how is climate change likely to affect that? It’s another thing we’re needing to look at now is if it’s going to be dry, it’s already dry out there. It’s it’s the desert. And if you get a dry year, there’s very little water that gets out of the aquifer to begin with. And if it continues to get drier, how much worse is that going to get?

Ryan Smith [00:44:20] So we’re engaged, you know, we we help fund a lot of the science. But the neat thing there is there are a lot of partners that are deeply engaged in in the conservation of Devils River.

Ryan Smith [00:44:31] So Parks and Wildlife Department, Devils River Conservancy is another nonprofit that we work with very closely and has really brought some of the the key landowners into, you know, into these partnerships. Other state agencies and academics.

Ryan Smith [00:44:48] So I think that’s another neat thing about the Devils is it’s it’s lent, it’s led to some really neat and effective partnerships, both in the research realm, but also in once we learn about it, “Okay, what do we do, how do we inform water management, how do we limit recreational impacts? Things like that.

Lee Smith [00:45:09] Okay. Moving over to Independence Creek, what’s unique about that and how is how is it similar but different? I guess.

Ryan Smith [00:45:21] Yeah, similar, but different. It is very similar in the sense that it depends on the same aquifer, that Edwards-Trinity aquifer. Again, very similar where we’ve protected a critical piece of habitat where that, that connection manifests itself in Caroline Springs and then connects to Independence Creek, which is then really the only thing keeping the Pecos River alive downstream from there as the Pecos has become more and more developed.

Ryan Smith [00:45:55] One of the things that’s neat about Independence Creek is that, and this is the case anywhere that we’ve got this groundwater coming up to the surface, it’s also the case at the Dolan Springs also. But Independence Creek, we’ve had a lot of research done by hydrogeologists, but more, but even more interestingly, by a whole array of biologists.

Ryan Smith [00:46:24] And, you know, going back to your, you know, biology, high school level or college level biology, when you’re learning about all these different types of invertebrates from, you know, your isopods and your snails and everything, we’ve had all of these researchers looking at what’s going on at Independence Creek. And I honestly have lost count of the number of species that have been found only in the springs at right there at Independence Creek Preserve, Caroline Springs.

Ryan Smith [00:46:57] And two of them even have the Nature Conservancy in the scientific names of these species that were described from only there.

Ryan Smith [00:47:08] So it’s not that the presence of unique little isopods, you know, our pillbug relatives or unique aquatic mites or whatever gives it gives it more value than anywhere else. But it points out the critical importance of keeping these ecosystems healthy because there’s there’s not many places that those those things persist.

Ryan Smith [00:47:34] But also it just shows that we’ve still got a chance to maintain the importance of that system to the Pecos River downstream.

Ryan Smith [00:47:40] And when we talk about Independence Creek, I can’t not insert a personal note to this.

Ryan Smith [00:47:47] Independence Creek is the favorite, my three kids’ favorite place in the world. Dolan is catching up, but just for the enjoyment of, actually I’ve got one that will go there and she’ll spend her entire time with her, with her mask and snorkel on, looking at at the spring, looking at all the the the rare, the state-listed fish swimming around.

Ryan Smith [00:48:17] And she actually will catch him with her net and show Robert McCurdy, “Here’s the Rio Grande darter.” And he said, “Yeah, yeah. Sure they’re there.” And he looked and he’s like, “Oh, my God. It is a Rio Grande darter.”

Ryan Smith [00:48:28] But also swimming in the pool, you know, in the lower lake, and catching big bass. And what’s neat for me is, you know, going back to your first question, my dad spending that time with me in in Colorado is what got me into this.

Ryan Smith [00:48:47] And Independence Creek is one of those places I hope my kids would answer the same question for, you know, some of these some formative time for them. And actually, my oldest daughter, who’s 15, she’s telling people she wants to be a hydrogeologist. So.

Lee Smith [00:49:06] How does that make you feel?

Ryan Smith [00:49:08] Pretty awesome. Yeah. Yeah, maybe I did, maybe I managed to do 1 or 2 things right. Made, messed up a lot of things, but maybe I managed to do 1 or 2 things right.

Lee Smith [00:49:25] Well, we’ve kind of I mean, some of these you’ve already kind of rolled in.

Lee Smith [00:49:36] What about this this native grass seed? That’s on the terrestrial side of it, but it’s also, it’s everything’s all connected up there. You know, you need a good grassland to have some permeable, you know, slow some of the water down and etc. so how has that come about?

Ryan Smith [00:49:56] Yeah, I think that’s that’s another thing I haven’t talked much about is that, we, all the work we do on the land affects the health, the health of the water. And when we’re doing work on water conservation, we absolutely need to need to be thinking about the watershed context, and the land-water interface.

Ryan Smith [00:50:16] So out there, a lot of, in West Texas and central Texas, where water scarcity is the challenge, a lot of what we’re focusing our work on is making sure that there’s enough ground water feeding it.

Ryan Smith [00:50:31] But a key part of keeping that whole system healthy, even if there is no water, is keeping the grasslands and the riparian zone and the and the whole watershed healthy.

Ryan Smith [00:50:42] So if we’re, I don’t know that much about the the specifics of the of the grassland health and the uplands and what we’re doing there. But that is an important aspect of keeping that that whole watershed in Independence Creek, but every other one we’re working in, keeping it healthy.

Ryan Smith [00:50:59] You know, that’s, you know, particularly if we’re in central Texas, East Texas, that’s really a whole other area that we’re we’re really trying to get even more effective at is in as we’re stewarding our own lands, but also as we’re working with landowner partners, trying to trying to work out not just on our own lands, but but impact more of the watershed, making sure that we understand how how our grasslands work or how our forest work is, is benefiting the water also is is is critically important.

Ryan Smith [00:51:35] You know, that’s another thing about the Nature Conservancy that’s that was so compelling to me and remains so, you know it’s it’s we’ve we’ve had a lot of challenging time. Any any nonprofit has.

Ryan Smith [00:51:47] But one of the the compelling things about the Conservancy is we’re one of the few organizations that can work at both those both those levels, and can even go more macro than that. Can work at the policy level effectively, but then work at the landscape level with a partner like NRCS to affect grazing practices, but then work a little more specific on individual properties, whether they’re 4000 acres or 40 acres, and then go even finer and work and have expertise on how to improve grassland health or or riparian health or things like that.

Ryan Smith [00:52:28] And we’re and also have access to real experts, not just in Texas. There’s a lot of these things that we work on that that we rely on expertise in the Conservancy from from other states, from our national programs, things like that.

Ryan Smith [00:52:44] So that’s another thing that’s neat about the Conservancy is that we’ve seen manifest in Texas because the uniqueness of being able to work at all those all those levels.

Lee Smith [00:52:54] And one of the places we really haven’t touched much on is Diamond Y Spring.

Ryan Smith [00:52:59] Yeah.

Lee Smith [00:53:00] What what’s important about that place?

Ryan Smith [00:53:04] That is a great question that we get a lot, including from people who are out there standing next to it, looking at it, saying, “What’s important about Diamond Y Spring?”

Ryan Smith [00:53:18] Diamond Y Spring is is one of those places that I knew about before I really even knew what the Nature Conservancy was, back going all the way back to Colorado when I was when I was there.

Ryan Smith [00:53:32] It was protected on Earth Day 1991. Correct? I shouldn’t look at him. You’ll you’ll get this, you’ll get that story from Karges. It was protected.

Ryan Smith [00:53:47] TNC Texas protected that habitat while I was an undergrad, and getting deeply interested in in fish and desert fishes.

Ryan Smith [00:53:57] And what what’s important about it from an ecological perspective is there are, it’s a desert wetland. It’s what we call a cienega. It’s, literally it’s a it’s a desert oasis. No palm trees. Pumpjacks instead of palm trees. But it is a desert oasis.

Ryan Smith [00:54:16] And as is the case with any place where there’s water in the desert, that’s where you’re going to find all the life.

Ryan Smith [00:54:23] So there are seven federally listed species at Diamond Y, including including two that occur there and nowhere else on earth, actually three now that occur there and nowhere else on earth.

Ryan Smith [00:54:39] So ecologically that’s I mean, it’s a slam dunk. It’s a critically important place in our in our mission of protecting nature and ecosystems.

Ryan Smith [00:54:51] It’s not a place like Independence Creek or Devils River that feed down into a water supply system that have that kind of obvious connection to human needs.

Ryan Smith [00:55:03] But what is interesting about it is that it really shows that in this area where there’s been a lot of development of the aquifer for for irrigation, it’s literally surrounded by oil and gas activity, including now fracking. There’s still enough health to that, that aquifer system that’s supporting that spring, but also those other kinds of uses in that area. There’s still enough health at this place…

Ryan Smith [00:55:33] Sorry. I’ll say that sentence over again here in second.

Lee Smith [00:55:42] Yeah lubricate.

Ryan Smith [00:55:47] There’s still enough.

Jeff Weigel [00:55:48] Have you said the words Leon Springs pupfish yet?

Ryan Smith [00:55:51] No, I haven’t. But there’s still enough health to that part of the aquifer that sustaining that that ecosystem, that that shows us that, as impacted as it is, this is still a place we can we can get it right.

Ryan Smith [00:56:08] And there’s some pretty neat, you know, if if you look closely, there’s some some really neat neat things about this system, one of which is the the fish that occurs there now and nowhere else because its namesake springs has dried up. It’s called the Leon Springs pupfish.

Ryan Smith [00:56:27] And get John Karges to tell you tell you about this because he’s he’s the pup daddy.

Ryan Smith [00:56:33] But it is a it is a really, truly unique fish that lives in, it’s not saltwater. It’s not quite brackish water even, but some of the most inhospitable habitats, aquatic habitats, in in Texas. And this this fish is there flourishing – this this beautiful kind of blue-gray flash swimming around in the shallows. Really, really unique and interesting, interesting fish.

Ryan Smith [00:57:03] And then there’s also two there’s two snails that are found there and nowhere else on earth.

Ryan Smith [00:57:11] But it’s also one that we’re seeing an increasing impact on recently. We’ve actually seen spring flow declines out there.

Ryan Smith [00:57:21] So it’s one that we’re we’re working very closely and focusing on right now, working with the the groundwater conservation district, which in Texas groundwater is is managed and regulated, such as it is, by these local these local entities called groundwater districts that are usually at the scale of a county or parts of counties or multiple counties.

Ryan Smith [00:57:44] And we’re working very closely with them because they’re concerned about this this trend and want to use that that spring potentially as as another kind of management target for how they manage groundwater in Pecos County.

Ryan Smith [00:57:58] So we’ve we’ve worked with them on a lot of research to understand the aquifers contributing to the to the spring, which are far more complicated than the Devils River.

Ryan Smith [00:58:12] There really is not a river. And this is absolutely true in West Texas. There’s not a river or a spring system that the Nature Conservancy has not contributed to the conservation of and is a critical player in.

Ryan Smith [00:58:27] And we’ve talked about the Devils River and Independence Creek. We’ve talked about Diamond Y. There’s there’s another preserve we have farther west in Reeves County called Sandia Springs Preserve, which is right close to Balmorhea State Park, which is one of those places that’s the answer to your first question for a lot of people. Swimming in Balmorhea State Park is one of the first places they fell in love with with rivers or a spring, obviously, in that case.

Ryan Smith [00:58:57] We’ve been a we’ve been a player in all those places. And again, initially through that that land protection work, but through that evolution, evolution of how we work, engaging in developing the science, in working with the water managers to get it right, in thinking about how to use, how to use levers like environmental water transactions to drive good water use, connecting the state-wide policy.

Ryan Smith [00:59:28] We actually have, well, there’s a there’s a couple of neat examples or neat illustrations of this. We have, you know, John Karges has received awards for his conservation work in West Texas and and from a variety of organizations that that this is an expression of how these places that the Conservancy protected and then has managed are critical to maintaining the endangered species, maintaining these ecosystems throughout west Texas.

Ryan Smith [01:00:04] And also even in in books on conservation, particularly in the Chihuahuan desert, there’s always a chapter on the Nature Conservancy. And that’s because, certainly not all and there are there are other places that are important, but even the, there’s the places we own, but there’s also the iconic places like like the Big Bend that the Conservancy has made critical contributions to the conservation of through through conservation easements, through assists and things like that.

Ryan Smith [01:00:34] So, so, while, while, it’s been transaction by transaction, land protection project by project, what it adds up to is we’ve made a real critical contribution to…

Ryan Smith [01:00:53] This is where I need to have my damn numbers down.

Jeff Weigel [01:00:57] Oh, don’t worry about that.

Ryan Smith [01:00:57] No, no, I’m going to. I’m going to. I’m going to say it, but I’m going to go back in and re-say that sentence.

Jeff Weigel [01:01:03] It adds to a million acres, all-told.

Ryan Smith [01:01:04] Well, I’m going to…

Ryan Smith [01:01:10] So one of one of the things that that adds up to is that TNC has contributed greatly to the the protection of five of the most important spring systems in central and West Texas and over 200 miles of rivers and streams, some of which supporting critical ecosystem work, all of which supporting critical human needs, protecting people in nature.

Ryan Smith [01:01:39] And that’s added up to protection of over 200 miles of rivers and streams in Texas, all of which is critically important to ecosystems that both people and nature depend on, and has added up to protection of some of the most iconic rivers and landscapes in the state.

Ryan Smith [01:01:59] That’s better. Yeah.

Lee Smith [01:02:03] Just kind of completely different, but also connected. Out there, let’s say at Devils, at night, when you look up, do you remember the first time you just, like, froze there and and couldn’t stop looking?

Ryan Smith [01:02:31] I do. You know, I spend a lot of time in the Rockies, and worked in the backcountry and in absolute dark skies and remember being amazed. But I remember the first time I saw an absolutely dark night at Independence Creek. That was the the place where I first saw it.

Ryan Smith [01:02:51] And, you know, we turn the lights off and just the Milky Way was laid out in a way I had, even in Colorado at night, I had never seen to such a degree. And it was quiet.

Ryan Smith [01:03:07] Yeah, absolutely. I can remember that.

Ryan Smith [01:03:09] And I and another another neat thing is, is I watched all my kids have that experience at that same place too. It’s just like. You know, they’ve had a long day and they’re tired. “Come on, guys. You need to come out here and see this.”.

Ryan Smith [01:03:25] It’s been, you know, we’ve been here for three days. It’s been stormy and rainy (which we could use that right now).

Ryan Smith [01:03:33] But it’s a clear night. “You need to come out here and see this.” “All right.” And get them out there and just have that exact reaction like, “Whoa! What is that?” “That’s the Milky Way. Those are stars.”

Lee Smith [01:03:49] How does that give you a perspective as a human being?

Ryan Smith [01:04:02] Yeah.

Lee Smith [01:04:02] And your place, I guess.

Ryan Smith [01:04:05] Yeah.

Lee Smith [01:04:05] In that universe?

Ryan Smith [01:04:08] Wow. Yeah. Now. Now we’re going, we’re going really, we’re going really deep now.

Ryan Smith [01:04:18] Well, I think I think it’s I think it’s impossible to stand at a place like like Caddo, or overlooking a river like the Devils, or looking up at the night sky at a place like Dolan Falls or Independence Creek or Davis Mountains, and not have a spiritual experience, you know, not not have a, you know, whatever your belief system is, you know, not have an experience of of something deeper, you know, that we are we are a part of.

Ryan Smith [01:04:55] You know, looking up at the night, whatever you see when you look up at the night sky, it’s it’s impossible not to, in those places, to not have a deep experience.

Ryan Smith [01:05:06] And then and then also to, you know, as as whatever contribution I’ve made to it, you know, as part of the Conservancy to, to feel like we’ve we’ve played a little bit of a role in making sure that the next generation and the one after is going to be able to have that experience also.

Ryan Smith [01:05:25] I think that’s, I mean we talk about conserving doing conservation for people and nature. That’s every bit as important part of that as making sure there’s water for human consumption or, or all these, you know, making sure it supports the economic health of Texas. That spirit, those spiritual experiences, are equally an important part of that.

Lee Smith [01:05:54] Excellent.

Lee Smith [01:05:58] So what advice would you give to somebody? Your daughter?

Ryan Smith [01:06:04] Yeah.

Lee Smith [01:06:04] She’s already taken the bait.

Ryan Smith [01:06:08] Yeah.

Lee Smith [01:06:09] I should say.

Ryan Smith [01:06:09] Yeah.

Lee Smith [01:06:09] But say she says, “Dad. I want to get involved in conservation. What do I do?”

Ryan Smith [01:06:18] Yeah. Well, I think the most the most important advice is fall in love with places. Fall in love with with a place, whether it’s a river, whether it’s the coast, whether it’s the beach, you know, whether it’s a night sky in fall. Have those experiences. Be out and fall and fall in love with the with the places and enjoy.

Ryan Smith [01:06:50] And that’s and take, and for a lot of people that means take advantage of any opportunity you have to do that. Get out, get out, get away from the the Xbox. Get away from the all those things that just suck up our time and our energy and experience it.

Ryan Smith [01:07:12] That to me, that’s that’s critical. And that’s one thing I’ve tried to really make sure to do with with with my kids is give them that that opportunity, because they’re they’re never going to develop any kind of interest or motivation or ability to contribute to keeping it there for their kids if they don’t fall in love with it and they don’t have those experiences. So I think that’s that’s the first thing.

Ryan Smith [01:07:44] And after that, it’s and this this is absolutely something I’ve I’ve talked with my my oldest daughter about in particular, which is just what, if you want to think about how to contribute, what is it that interests you? What, what do you enjoy?

Ryan Smith [01:08:01] And I’ve told her it doesn’t have to be fish just because it is for me, you know, whatever, whatever it is, whatever you’re you’re interested in, focus on that.

Ryan Smith [01:08:10] Don’t worry about trying to figure out what the best profession is in today’s economy or you know what the best school is. Just focus on what it is that you love and what’s interesting, because that’s the only thing you’re going to you’re going to pursue and and be able to sustain any kind of engagement in without becoming a cynical city dweller. Yeah.

Lee Smith [01:08:46] So what’s what’s your outlook on the future of conservation and conservation in general? Are you…

Ryan Smith [01:08:54] Yeah.

Lee Smith [01:08:54] Are you up or down, psyched or bummed?

Ryan Smith [01:09:00] This is one I saw I saw on the list and I’ve been been thinking about. And I think I think I want to go back to what I said about the Devils River, is there are absolutely places and areas in which we can still get it right. I think we’ve got some some incredible challenges, and many of those challenges are only going to get worse. But I do still firmly believe that there there are places we can we can get it right.

Ryan Smith [01:09:34] The the state of the science, the state of of understanding of how, of best practices for managing water, for managing watersheds, has advanced incredibly. I’m certain there are things we still need to learn, but these these fields do know what to do. And we do know we do know how to do it.

Ryan Smith [01:09:59] So and there are places where where we can we can work with with the constituents, with the agencies, with yes, even the politicians to, you know, to develop the the will to do it, to do it right.

Ryan Smith [01:10:13] And these places that we care about enough, whether it’s for paddling a kayak on the Devils River or whether it’s maintaining the globally significant agriculture in the Rio Grande farther downstream from there. There are reasons we care about these things. And we do know how to do it.

Ryan Smith [01:10:33] So if we put those things together right, there there are absolutely places that we can we can still get it right. We can still we can still win.